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Author Topic: We're only in it for the money...  (Read 2894 times)
Stevie1024
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June 09, 2011, 10:37:11 AM
 #1

With about 30$ being paid for one bitcoin, I think it's time the 'core developers' take a stand on how they value bitcoin. In an 'Omega Tau' podcast from March 19th, I hear Gavin Andresen say:

"At this point, I would advise people not to make heavy investments in Bitcoins." (31:10).

Is this still his point of view? What is the opinion of the other developers? Satoshi Nakamoto, Martti Malmi, Amir Taaki, Pieter Wuille, Nils Schneider and Jeff Garzik?

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly)  accountable of something goes wrong. And I think this also holds for not speaking up.


I'm out of here!
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nathanrees19
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June 09, 2011, 10:38:55 AM
 #2

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable of something goes wrong.

I disagree.
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June 09, 2011, 10:39:01 AM
 #3

If you lose something valuable you are accountable. No one is making any promises to you here.

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June 09, 2011, 10:44:49 AM
 #4

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable of something goes wrong.

I disagree.
I agree with the guy disagreeing with OP. OP I disagree. The information is all available for anybody wanting to do their own due diligence before deciding on their comfort levels with bitcoin.

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Stevie1024
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June 09, 2011, 10:45:08 AM
 #5

If you lose something valuable you are accountable. No one is making any promises to you here.

No one is making any promises, and in priciple I agree everyone is responsible for their own stupidity. But if I'd been one of the core developers and if I would have any doubts, I'd still feel moraly obliged to speak out very loud before cashing in bigtime.

I'm out of here!
Grant
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June 09, 2011, 10:47:42 AM
 #6

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable

Yes, you and your money.

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June 09, 2011, 10:48:13 AM
 #7

With about 30$ being paid for one bitcoin, I think it's time the 'core developers' take a stand on how they value bitcoin. In an 'Omega Tau' podcast from March 19th, I hear Gavin Andresen say:

"At this point, I would advise people not to make heavy investments in Bitcoins." (31:10).

Is this still his point of view? What is the opinion of the other developers? Satoshi Nakamoto, Martti Malmi, Amir Taaki, Pieter Wuille, Nils Schneider and Jeff Garzik?

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable of something goes wrong. And I think this also holds for not speaking up.

Or... you could hold yourself responsible for not speaking up to yourself when you sold your house to buy bitcoins and they crashed.  I suggest suing yourself for all losses, as your silence on the subject when you are so easily accessible to yourself would be nothing short of criminally negligent.

I'm actually suing myself right now because I didn't tell myself to buy Bitcoins last October; given that I act as my own financial adviser, I think I owe myself all the lost income from the price rises that I couldn't take advantage of.  I'm such a bastard.

1AAZ4xBHbiCr96nsZJ8jtPkSzsg1CqhwDa
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June 09, 2011, 10:55:58 AM
 #8

If you lose something valuable you are accountable. No one is making any promises to you here.

No one is making any promises, and in priciple I agree everyone is responsible for their own stupidity. But if I'd been one of the core developers and if I would have any doubts, I'd still feel moraly obliged to speak out very loud before cashing in bigtime.

I don't mind if you think you would have some obligation in some hypothetical situation.

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Stevie1024
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June 09, 2011, 11:07:04 AM
 #9

If you lose something valuable you are accountable. No one is making any promises to you here.

No one is making any promises, and in priciple I agree everyone is responsible for their own stupidity. But if I'd been one of the core developers and if I would have any doubts, I'd still feel moraly obliged to speak out very loud before cashing in bigtime.

I don't mind if you think you would have some obligation in some hypothetical situation.

Thanks for not mining. I agree the situation is purely hypothetical. And I made a mistake saying the developers are accountable, they are not accountable. Unless they've actively mislead us into believing Bitcoins should be paid 30$ for, of which I have no information.

But I do hope some of the developers see that this might be getting a little out of hand. A (hypothetical) crash might reflect badly on any cryptocurrency and might reflect badly on them.


I'm out of here!
schekn
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June 09, 2011, 11:17:41 AM
 #10

 Roll Eyes

With a turnover of about 50 000 BTC at MtGox and millions BTC being bought just because of speculative expectations - it will be a perfect disaster.

I know, some people does not want to hear the message.
OK, he who does not want to know will have to feel!

Good luck betting!
jashan
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June 09, 2011, 11:26:30 AM
 #11

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable of something goes wrong. And I think this also holds for not speaking up.

I think one of the really great things about Bitcoin from a philosophical / ideological point of view is that due to its decentralized nature, it returns responsibility and power to the individual. There's no company, no bank, no government that is responsible for Bitcoin, and no single individual or small group of individuals. It's a very large group of individuals - and anyone doing anything with Bitcoins (even talking about it) is part of that very large group.

So it's the real thing: Everyone is fully responsible for their own actions. One really nice thing about Bitcoin is that it's fully transparent - from the core concepts to the individual transactions to the client source code (and since it's a P2P network, there's no secret server, only equal clients ;-) ). So, what you do with Bitcoins and the consequences you have to face of what you do with Bitcoins are fully up to you. If someone feels they don't understand what's going on: Educate yourself, do the research, ask specific questions.

If someone feels they want to hold someone else accountable for their own actions (i.e. whether or not you buy and use Bitcoins or not), they're clearly not ready for this new age of which Bitcoin is a part of. In that case, it's probably best for you to stay in the illusion of powerlessness and blaming governments and banks for the financial desasters (and wars), and oil companies and Tepco (and the likes) for the destruction of our planet ... or big pharma for the destruction of our health - while in reality it's "most people" who gave those "evil greedy institutions" their money and power to do what they do (much of which I personally consider "seriously criminal" by the highest standards). IMHO, it's time for people to wake up and reclaim their own power and responsibility - step by step. It's kind of hard and usually not wise to try to drop out in one big step immediately - it's much more realistic to sustain by taking small steps, considering each step carefully before taking the next.

And Bitcoin clearly helps with that. IMHO, this is actually even kind of built in. Another thing that clearly helps, of course, is buying stuff from companies you did a little research on and did your best to find those that don't operate on greed but motives that are truthfully supporting life. And, equally important, working for (i.e. supporting) companies that you feel deserve your creative energy and make good use of it. Or completely do your own thing ;-)

If you like this posting - feel free to give a tip:
1HrTEoRXbNG3GeCodpUZazTWCsjytijmkH

Keep those Bitcoins flowing :-)

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schekn
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June 09, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
 #12



I think one of the really great things about Bitcoin from a philosophical / ideological point of view is that due to its decentralized nature, it returns responsibility and power to the individual.
[/quote]

Wrong. It brings power to the mob of speculators.
Stevie1024
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June 09, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
 #13

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable

Yes, you and your money.


Please explain?

I'm out of here!
cloud9
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June 09, 2011, 12:00:53 PM
 #14

Universal disclaimer:  Anybody reading any of my posts, I think that it goes without saying that all of that is purely my opinion.  You are all free to make up your own opinions.  I suppose I do not need to give you permission to listen or ignore my opinion?

In my opinion (and this statement is implied at all my posts!!, This is a forum discussion group about opinions - not a service I'm rendering!!)

Bitcoin has some valuable properties:

Secure, accounting system acting as a medium of exchange by enabling barter transactions almost instantly universally over short or vast distances using existing communication infrastructure!

Speculative properties:  As with new technologies - things get speculative!  And the speculator has decisions to make for himself...

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
unclescrooge
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June 09, 2011, 12:13:35 PM
 #15

With about 30$ being paid for one bitcoin, I think it's time the 'core developers' take a stand on how they value bitcoin. In an 'Omega Tau' podcast from March 19th, I hear Gavin Andresen say:

"At this point, I would advise people not to make heavy investments in Bitcoins." (31:10).

Is this still his point of view? What is the opinion of the other developers? Satoshi Nakamoto, Martti Malmi, Amir Taaki, Pieter Wuille, Nils Schneider and Jeff Garzik?

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly)  accountable of something goes wrong. And I think this also holds for not speaking up.



A btc is worth the economy behind bitcoins. The more shop accepting bitcoin, the more demand for btc. Supply/demand law etc. No one, absolutely no one can predict what this economy will be.

But the potential market is huge. I personally think a btc will be worth a 4 figures number of current euros.

Stevie1024
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June 09, 2011, 12:15:17 PM
 #16

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly) accountable of something goes wrong. And I think this also holds for not speaking up.
Actually I took that back almost 20 min. before you quoted me. You might have missed it, since your post is quite long. I'd appreciate it if you'd edit and apply a strikethough in your quote.

But I feel the need to explain the post I did that in.

[...] they are not accountable. Unless they've actively mislead us into believing Bitcoins should be paid 30$ for, of which I have no information.

I believe they should even have the right to actively mislead us, and not be sued for damages, but ofcourse I would never trust them again. That's how far the accountibility goes as fas as I'm concerned. I'm afraid that is my exceptional POV, society will think otherwise.

On the rest of your story: I think we're actually on the same side when it comes to 'power to the people' |-)

I'm only afraid that Bitcoin will do more damage to our common cause. But it is not my opinion that counts in this thread, I'm calling out for a stand of the core developers.

I'm out of here!
hugolp
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June 09, 2011, 12:40:16 PM
 #17

I think the amount of money involved is getting large enough to hold some people (at least moraly)  accountable of something goes wrong. And I think this also holds for not speaking up.

Accountable of what? What contract or oral promise did they break? Im honestly interested on knowing what do you think they are accountable of.
benkebab
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June 09, 2011, 01:55:09 PM
 #18

... Another thing that clearly helps, of course, is buying stuff from companies you did a little research on and did your best to find those that don't operate on greed but motives that are truthfully supporting life.

Good luck with that. Seriously, most of your money goes to big companies with many shareholders that don't give a crap about "supporting life", whatever their ad campaigns may claim...
td
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June 09, 2011, 02:04:00 PM
 #19

Whenever I think about putting more than a few thousand bucks into this I always go to the help menu and read the version number where it says this is BETA software.

Has bitcoin had a legitimate peer review done on it? There may be some big vulnerability discovered still that wipes out everything I put into it.

I love bitcoin and support it. However. It is new. It may not work. The idea behind it though is awesome!

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June 09, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
 #20

im in it for some free computer parts

buy computer, mine, sell btc, make money, repeat till computer is paid off or till i make double or triple and get out..
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