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Author Topic: Community discussion: Precede fake and throwaway addresses with a #?  (Read 1467 times)
Tacticat
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January 29, 2013, 02:59:39 PM
 #1

I've seen this picture on Reddit and was wondering about something...



What if I wanted to tip that man for the great picture?

Could I use that address? Does he still have control over it? Was it never his address to begin with? Did he just write down a random address for the lulz?

And what about this link on XKCD. Is that a public donation address or just some experiments from the site owner?

My proposal:

If you're displaying a throaway address, a fake address for a demonstration, for a joke, for a gag on TV or whatever and you want to make clear that people should not send bitcoins to it, then precede with a #.

For example: #19nxrYucX3B6rDZ1Gk2M2VEb2LFAGEAfsU

Now, this doesn't have to be used every time. Just in situation in which you think the address could be mistaken for a real one or in a situation with reasonable doubt.

What do you think? Any other suggestion?

Thanks.

Tips and donations:

15nqQGfkgoxrBnsshD6vCuMWuz71MK51Ug
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January 29, 2013, 03:08:40 PM
 #2

If you don't want someone to send coins to a fake address then make it invalid so people can't.  Make more sense than hoping they know a # means don't send.

Valid address: 1GQQwTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4prD  <- you can send coins there if you want.
Invalid address: 1GQQwTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pra <- you can't send coins here even if you wanted to.

By changing a single digit it invalidates the checksum.  Try to send coins to the invalid address, you can't.
Code:
E:\bitcoind> bitcoind sendtoaddress 1GQQwTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pra 0.01
error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid Bitcoin address"}

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January 29, 2013, 03:15:05 PM
 #3

If you don't want someone to send coins to a fake address then make it invalid so people can't.  Make more sense than hoping they know a # means don't send.

Valid address: 1GQQwTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4prD  <- you can send coins there if you want.
Invalid address: 1GQQwTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pra <- you can't send coins here even if you wanted to.

By changing a single digit it invalidates the checksum.  Try to send coins to the invalid address, you can't.
Code:
E:\bitcoind> bitcoind sendtoaddress 1GQQwTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pra 0.01
error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid Bitcoin address"}

It's very sad that Bitcoin does not have a system for documentation and fake addresses, similar in principle to NANP 555. I propose using version 128 addresses (prefix: 't') as documentation addresses.
giszmo
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January 29, 2013, 04:46:05 PM
 #4

Maybe he wants to explicitly invalidate it in order to not look like hoping to get some money to the address. Therefore I welcome the topic but not the solution.
How about preceding with 1555wTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pr?
This looks like it could be a valid address but you learn there is no point in trying to send money there.

Another approach would be to prefix with 1FakeTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pr so it's clear to even people expecting a real address Wink

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January 29, 2013, 04:46:41 PM
 #5

If you're displaying a throaway address...and you want to make clear that people should not send bitcoins to it, then precede with a #.

If you are prone to "accidentally" send money to unknown addresseses for no particular reason and without due diligence then you are a fucking idiot and also the subject of this post:

Why are Bitcointalk forum members so stupid?

Suggesting a change for the display of "throwaway" addreses in order to accommodate stupid people is, by transitive nature, also stupid.


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January 29, 2013, 04:54:35 PM
 #6

If you're displaying a throaway address...and you want to make clear that people should not send bitcoins to it, then precede with a #.

If you are prone to "accidentally" send money to unknown addresseses for no particular reason and without due diligence then you are a fucking idiot and also the subject of this post:

Why are Bitcointalk forum members so stupid?

Suggesting a change for the display of "throwaway" addreses in order to accommodate stupid people is, by transitive nature, also stupid.

Mind being less ignorant? I think it is a valid concern that people doing cool stuff with bitcoin addresses in it might or might not want to get tipped to these addresses and should have a way to explicitly not encourage people to tip them. It might not be your concern so please move along.

casascius
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January 29, 2013, 04:55:01 PM
 #7

If you're displaying a throaway address...and you want to make clear that people should not send bitcoins to it, then precede with a #.

If you are prone to "accidentally" send money to unknown addresseses for no particular reason and without due diligence then you are a fucking idiot and also the subject of this post:

Why are Bitcointalk forum members so stupid?

Suggesting a change for the display of "throwaway" addreses in order to accommodate stupid people is, by transitive nature, also stupid.

+1

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
casascius
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January 29, 2013, 04:58:00 PM
 #8

Mind being less ignorant? I think it is a valid concern that people doing cool stuff with bitcoin addresses in it might or might not want to get tipped to these addresses and should have a way to explicitly not encourage people to tip them. It might not be your concern so please move along.

A way already exists: make the address invalid by changing a few characters.  Adding undesirable complexity to Bitcoin's design and throwing scarce development resources to accommodate this isn't cool or wise.

People exercising their own freedom of choice to knowingly throw bitcoins into a likely black hole is not a problem we need to solve.  I destroyed some Bitcoin in your honor, just for fun.  The 0.01397216 refers to topic #139721 message #6. Smiley

http://blockchain.info/tx-index/47521043/8a14ed8fa3a92af3ba48bf10da5b6e1f766ca89b93db3470b17be5aa9986e987


Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
giszmo
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January 29, 2013, 05:05:33 PM
 #9

Mind being less ignorant? I think it is a valid concern that people doing cool stuff with bitcoin addresses in it might or might not want to get tipped to these addresses and should have a way to explicitly not encourage people to tip them. It might not be your concern so please move along.

A way already exists: make the address invalid by changing a few characters.  Adding complexity to Bitcoin's design and throwing scarce development resources at this isn't cool or wise.

OMG casascius! I was quoting you in my post on exactly this subject but thanks for hinting me to what I just described. Also I doubt anybody ever intended to change the protocol, a client or anything. I see this just as a reminder to no use valid addresses nobody is tracking in artwork.

casascius
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January 29, 2013, 05:12:05 PM
 #10

Another approach would be to prefix with 1FakeTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pr so it's clear to even people expecting a real address Wink

Once upon a time, my Casascius.com website spit out a payment address starting with "1Fake" that was totally generated as a coincidence.  That wasn't you, was it?

Quote
-----Original Message-----
From: <redacted>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:38 PM
To: Mike Caldwell
Subject: Re: Physical Bitcoin order received

Do you do custom coins? Can I buy some coins with my portrait on them?

Sent from my iPhone4

On Jan 5, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Mike Caldwell <my own email redacted to prevent spam> wrote:

> Randomness does some strange things!  
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone4
>
> On Jan 5, 2012, at 18:58, <redacted> wrote:
>
>> I didnt want this one cause the bitcoin address said Fake lol
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 5, 2012, at 3:20 PM, <my own email redacted to prevent spam> wrote:
>>
>>> <redacted>,
>>>
>>> Your Physical Bitcoin order has been received.  Your order number is 1Fake6U9.  Please make a payment of 6.10 BTC to 1Fake6U9WZt1s5hneNdeYHiDd6UTpo768D, and then click Confirm on my web page.  If you aren't able to click Confirm after paying (e.g. you closed your browser), just reply to this message.
>>>
>>> After payment is received, you will receive another e-mail when the mailing label has been prepared, which will include any applicable tracking or customs information.  This message will come from the shipping software.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your order, and hope you enjoy the coins.
>>>
>>> Mike Caldwell
>>>


Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
jerfelix
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January 30, 2013, 12:07:34 AM
 #11

Let's just always use this address as the fake:

1PfaKe9tFitNrUFjht4DNvVkmjEFCo3sYs

 Cheesy
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January 30, 2013, 12:13:38 AM
 #12

Another approach would be to prefix with 1FakeTcG7zJJW3Tp3EG72dVpZfghwV4pr so it's clear to even people expecting a real address Wink

Once upon a time, my Casascius.com website spit out a payment address starting with "1Fake" that was totally generated as a coincidence.  That wasn't you, was it?

Quote
-----Original Message-----
From: <redacted>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:38 PM
To: Mike Caldwell
Subject: Re: Physical Bitcoin order received

Do you do custom coins? Can I buy some coins with my portrait on them?

Sent from my iPhone4

On Jan 5, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Mike Caldwell <my own email redacted to prevent spam> wrote:

> Randomness does some strange things!  
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone4
>
> On Jan 5, 2012, at 18:58, <redacted> wrote:
>
>> I didnt want this one cause the bitcoin address said Fake lol
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 5, 2012, at 3:20 PM, <my own email redacted to prevent spam> wrote:
>>
>>> <redacted>,
>>>
>>> Your Physical Bitcoin order has been received.  Your order number is 1Fake6U9.  Please make a payment of 6.10 BTC to 1Fake6U9WZt1s5hneNdeYHiDd6UTpo768D, and then click Confirm on my web page.  If you aren't able to click Confirm after paying (e.g. you closed your browser), just reply to this message.
>>>
>>> After payment is received, you will receive another e-mail when the mailing label has been prepared, which will include any applicable tracking or customs information.  This message will come from the shipping software.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your order, and hope you enjoy the coins.
>>>
>>> Mike Caldwell
>>>


Isn't this problem moot if we use my proposal? A 't'-prefixed version 128 address has no chance of being randomly generated, but otherwise is formed exactly like a regular address.
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January 30, 2013, 12:36:38 AM
 #13

1CfpEXEHcWm5MBHNYmwaLwWi7pMLod1wbv

Either looks like he starved to death and I copied it incorrectly.
Ignore@YourPeril
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January 30, 2013, 01:26:34 AM
 #14

Yet another problem we Freicoiners don´t have to worry about; this will naturally be an address of the freicoin foundation : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133020.0
casascius
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January 30, 2013, 01:27:05 AM
 #15

Isn't this problem moot if we use my proposal? A 't'-prefixed version 128 address has no chance of being randomly generated, but otherwise is formed exactly like a regular address.

It also doesn't look like a bitcoin address.  It may as well be a bunch of random characters without concern for any "version number" when interpreted as base58, since people expect bitcoin addresses to start with a 1 (or a 3 as the case may eventually be)

It has sort of the same problem as if, say, someone declared that American movies should use six digit fake phone numbers instead of their usual seven-digit numbers prefixed with 555, and dictated that the six digits should be a prime number.  People would just see 6 digits and not think it was a phone number.  And they certainly wouldn't test the number for primality.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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January 30, 2013, 01:52:46 AM
 #16

What is the probability of coming up with a valid Bitcoin address if the appropriate number of characters are selected from the appropriate sample space? Is it very unlikely to randomly guess a valid address?

Hardfork aren't that hard.
1GCDzqmX2Cf513E8NeThNHxiYEivU1Chhe
DannyHamilton
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January 30, 2013, 03:07:03 AM
 #17

. . . Is it very unlikely to randomly guess a valid address?
Yes.

I'd guess that the odds are probably somewhere around 1 out of 232 (since the address has a 32bit checksum built in to it).

casascius
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January 30, 2013, 03:39:18 AM
 #18

if you want to make it obvious to geeks that the address is fake, try putting any of the following in the address: 0 O I l

This is like fake IP addresses in the movies like 198.60.280.32.  The number 280 isn't a valid octet for an IP address, but to non-techies, it doesn't look out of place.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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January 30, 2013, 12:23:35 PM
 #19

if you want to make it obvious to geeks that the address is fake, try putting any of the following in the address: 0 O I l

This is like fake IP addresses in the movies like 198.60.280.32.  The number 280 isn't a valid octet for an IP address, but to non-techies, it doesn't look out of place.

I was going to suggest the same thing.  If you are writing it on cardboard, though, 0 or O could easily be mistaken for o (which he has on his sign).  And I or l could be mistaken for 1. 

So you really have to go out of your way:  perhaps put a slash through a zero, or make the "I" with prominent horizontal lines.  That would achieve exactly what the OP is trying to achieve - make it unable to be used, while it still looks to the novice like a real address.


Then again, this isn't like "867-5309", where the holder of the number is penalized severely when the number appears in the mainstream culture.  Which is why I would go back to my original proposal and pick some "random" number, say 1PfaKe9tFitNrUFjht4DNvVkmjEFCo3sYs, for everyone to use as the preferred fake.  Yeah, that's a plan!  And it looks unused too!  https://blockchain.info/address/1PfaKe9tFitNrUFjht4DNvVkmjEFCo3sYs .   (Are you buying this yet?)
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January 30, 2013, 01:25:24 PM
 #20

if you want to make it obvious to geeks that the address is fake, try putting any of the following in the address: 0 O I l

This is like fake IP addresses in the movies like 198.60.280.32.  The number 280 isn't a valid octet for an IP address, but to non-techies, it doesn't look out of place.

I was going to suggest the same thing.  If you are writing it on cardboard, though, 0 or O could easily be mistaken for o (which he has on his sign).  And I or l could be mistaken for 1. 

So you really have to go out of your way:  perhaps put a slash through a zero, or make the "I" with prominent horizontal lines.  That would achieve exactly what the OP is trying to achieve - make it unable to be used, while it still looks to the novice like a real address.


Then again, this isn't like "867-5309", where the holder of the number is penalized severely when the number appears in the mainstream culture.  Which is why I would go back to my original proposal and pick some "random" number, say 1PfaKe9tFitNrUFjht4DNvVkmjEFCo3sYs, for everyone to use as the preferred fake.  Yeah, that's a plan!  And it looks unused too!  https://blockchain.info/address/1PfaKe9tFitNrUFjht4DNvVkmjEFCo3sYs .   (Are you buying this yet?)

ya know, just for being so ballsy... *sends .001 btc to 1PfaKe9tFitNrUFjht4DNvVkmjEFCo3sYs*
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