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Author Topic: Enough is enough.  (Read 941 times)
burnside
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January 29, 2013, 06:37:04 PM
 #1

Nobody wins when you go spreading FUD.  I'm getting really sick of it:

IRC: #bitcoin-assets

Quote
[10:47] <Ukto> hmm, can someone explain this to me.. 29k share sissued.. yet tyere are over 29k shares on the ask list... https://btct.co/security/BTC-BOND
[10:47] <Bugpowder_> I enjoyed the mpcd experience
[10:48] <Ukto> er 29k outstanding
[10:48] <mircea_popescu> Ukto they allow naked shorts ?
[10:48] <Ukto> dont think so
[10:48] <Bugpowder_> it was fun exiting each tranche before it exploded
[10:48] <mircea_popescu> heh.
[10:48] <Ukto> i cant post asks for more shares than I have
[10:50] <mircea_popescu> 0.0
[10:51] <Ukto> hence my "wtf"

So crazy easy to explain it's laughable.  The number you see is shares held publicly and the issuer has shares up for sale.  Didn't you just finish coding an exchange?

Quote
[12:05] <Ukto> on btct, I can fill my account with 100btc, put up to 100btc orders on each asset, and withdraw the 100btc
[12:05] <Ukto> and then its a complete, lie
[12:06] <mircea_popescu> dub speaking of which, what's happening to nefario's comeback thing ?
[12:06] <mircea_popescu> did he get the financing eventually ?
[12:06] <dub> not heard anything about it
[12:06] <Ukto> Regardless of 'pumping the numbers', i think traders have a right to knwo that a bid is actually backed, and not just a fake number on the books.
[12:07] <mircea_popescu> traders are free to figure it out neh ?
[12:08] <Ukto> I just cant bring myself to knowingly allow lies and inaccuracy on my system.
[12:08] <Ukto> I will be letting Deprived know that it just wont be happening.
[12:08] <mircea_popescu> so then don't.
[12:08] <Ukto> ;;tslb
[12:08] <gribble> Time since last block: 33 minutes and 12 seconds
[12:09] <mircea_popescu> on btct, I can fill my account with 100btc, put up to 100btc orders on each asset, and withdraw the 100btc << this is pretty rich tho

Holy crap.  Outright Lies.

When you withdraw or transfer it cancels your orders you can no longer afford.  Plain.  Simple.  Effective.  I even have a display on the withdrawal page clearly showing the maximum you can withdraw without orders getting canceled -- AND, this behavior has been discussed to death in the btct/litecoinglobal threads.

This behavior is totally unnecessary.  Tongue


I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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Ukyo
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January 29, 2013, 10:42:49 PM
 #2

Nobody wins when you go spreading FUD.  I'm getting really sick of it:

IRC: #bitcoin-assets

Quote
[10:47] <Ukto> hmm, can someone explain this to me.. 29k share sissued.. yet tyere are over 29k shares on the ask list... https://btct.co/security/BTC-BOND
[10:47] <Bugpowder_> I enjoyed the mpcd experience
[10:48] <Ukto> er 29k outstanding
[10:48] <mircea_popescu> Ukto they allow naked shorts ?
[10:48] <Ukto> dont think so
[10:48] <Bugpowder_> it was fun exiting each tranche before it exploded
[10:48] <mircea_popescu> heh.
[10:48] <Ukto> i cant post asks for more shares than I have
[10:50] <mircea_popescu> 0.0
[10:51] <Ukto> hence my "wtf"

So crazy easy to explain it's laughable.  The number you see is shares held publicly and the issuer has shares up for sale.  Didn't you just finish coding an exchange?

Yup, as you posted, I asked for some clarification. I see you enjoy trying to cut and paste things leaving out parts of the conversation. Nice 1hr gap there.
Very nice of you. Smiley
Perhaps you could include where Namworld explained to me how it was listing.
Since your system does not allow sub-accounts, I was unsure if the non-outstanding shares were simply not issued at all and just a maximum or of they were just being held by the issuer.
Occasionally, depending on the asset type, some issuers actually 'hold' some shares, and have a max share count that the asset can issue out.
As you can see, there is a chance for confusion.

So far I have been accused of being a liar.  I do not see any lies here? Or was this just tossed in to try to make me somehow look bad in a fail troll attempt?
I was simply confused at how it was displayed and was asking questions. Smiley I am glad that Namworld did answer my question though. Smiley


Quote
[12:05] <Ukto> on btct, I can fill my account with 100btc, put up to 100btc orders on each asset, and withdraw the 100btc
[12:05] <Ukto> and then its a complete, lie
[12:06] <mircea_popescu> dub speaking of which, what's happening to nefario's comeback thing ?
[12:06] <mircea_popescu> did he get the financing eventually ?
[12:06] <dub> not heard anything about it
[12:06] <Ukto> Regardless of 'pumping the numbers', i think traders have a right to knwo that a bid is actually backed, and not just a fake number on the books.
[12:07] <mircea_popescu> traders are free to figure it out neh ?
[12:08] <Ukto> I just cant bring myself to knowingly allow lies and inaccuracy on my system.
[12:08] <Ukto> I will be letting Deprived know that it just wont be happening.
[12:08] <mircea_popescu> so then don't.
[12:08] <Ukto> ;;tslb
[12:08] <gribble> Time since last block: 33 minutes and 12 seconds
[12:09] <mircea_popescu> on btct, I can fill my account with 100btc, put up to 100btc orders on each asset, and withdraw the 100btc << this is pretty rich tho

Holy crap.  Outright Lies.

When you withdraw or transfer it cancels your orders you can no longer afford.  Plain.  Simple.  Effective.  I even have a display on the withdrawal page clearly showing the maximum you can withdraw without orders getting canceled -- AND, this behavior has been discussed to death in the btct/litecoinglobal threads.

This behavior is totally unnecessary.  Tongue

Clearly, plain and simple.. wow... that must be the cause of the problem right there.
I have 35.5 btc in my account, I have a 35btc order up for a security right now.
The withdraw page clearly, plainly, and simply says I have 35.5btc available to withdraw. No further details.
You should check what you coded. Smiley Sometimes when you get so busy writing things, and coding too much, you can think to do something, and then think you did it. Wink

I have pretty well kept up with btct posts for the last.. 6? 7? pages at least. I must have missed it in the forums.
I am not as obsessive about you/btct/litecoinglobal as you are of me apparently.
I was in the middle of a conversation regarding pumping the books based on per asset reserves and possibly doing the same on BitFunder per Deprived's request.
I don't stop for every irc conversation and scan every forum thread that may possibly be related I would be here for years.

So, which part is a lie?
The fact that reserves are per-asset based? (Have you used your system?)
The fact that I have a 35btc order on the books, and the withdraw page tells me I have 35btc balance to with draw?

Just going by what I see.

If you read it, I was not attacking btct, but stating I do not believe that allowing people to bloat order books is a good thing for traders and a lie of actual liquidity.
(Is this wrong? Is showing X btc worth in orders across multiple assets some magical method of determining actual market liquidity and not construed as pumped numbers?)
This was the discussion.
This was a request by a few people of GLBSE, and I am not sure if other exchanges do it as well. It was just my personal opinion that by doing it, is a lie.


Quote
[12:05] <Ukto> on btct, I can fill my account with 100btc, put up to 100btc orders on each asset, and withdraw the 100btc

I guess based on my wording, I said 'can' instead of 'could' since I did not actually test the withdraw.
I was basing it off of having btc on the order books, and the available withdraw amount being my total, and no mention of orders being canceled.

So if you are mad at your lack of explanation on the site, and poor forethought of how to display information, or some unknown bug and is what you are freaking out so bad that it has to be posted all over the interweb rather than to me or the few people who were part of my discussion that you chose to not be apart of, then you need to get out of the house and away from computers for a while.

Quote
[12:06] <Ukto> Regardless of 'pumping the numbers', i think traders have a right to knwo that a bid is actually backed, and not just a fake number on the books.
[12:07] <mircea_popescu> traders are free to figure it out neh ?
[12:08] <Ukto> I just cant bring myself to knowingly allow lies and inaccuracy on my system.
[12:08] <Ukto> I will be letting Deprived know that it just wont be happening.

Nothing to lie about. Btct allows reserves on a per asset basis regarding BTC. Unless this was a mistake on your part?
Deprived stated in the BitFunder thread that is how it at least is currently there and asked for it on BitFunder.
I began to implement it, did some tests, and as I did I simply found that it would create a false sense of liquidity on the market. i.e. Pumping numbers.
Do you not agree? If you see 5,000 btc in buy orders for each asset, someone might actually think there is 5,000 btc * (number of assets) and think
"WOAH! LOOK AT HOW MUCH PEOPLE HAVE INVESTED!"
They are then moving forward on a false belief. Or if they know better, they are going "wow. well, I no idea how much is REALLY in this market."
No trader should really have to guess about what is actual state of the market is.

Your site purports itself as "educational" but to my knowledge, and I may be wrong, but most any real respectable stock exchange does not allow such bloating for abusive purposes.

But that is another discussion for another topic some other time. Not here, and not now where I am being accused of being a liar.
(It was during the irc conversation you did not participate in though.)

So why are you so offended? I was having a discussion with others, including another exchange operator in regards to your site because it tends towards non-standard practices.
Is this setting a precedence that anytime someone makes a comment about your site you do not agree with you will attempt to drag them across coals and put them up for a public lynching?

I have coded an exchange, yes. I generally stick to the "norm" or try to. Wink I will be breaking free of that rather soon with some great new features and services.

I personally use BTCT and actively trade on it and even hold a few shares of ltc-global. I have made no attempts to hide this fact, and make everyone aware of it including you.
I know you see this as some sort of competition, but you need to let it go. Really.
I think the recent changes of adding the fill buttons down the order book, along with the cancel button and other additions like BitFunder's is a great upgrade for btct users.

I think YOUR behavior of freaking out over someone asking questions and having a discussion about how your site works, and discussing it on irc let alone anywhere else, and the fact that no one was around who could clarify one of the topics is totally unnecessary.

You can not resist any possible; even if slight and incorrect chance to make someone look bad in front of the largest possible audience and spew YOUR 'fud' for the world to see.
If I wanted to spread 'fud', I would do it where people would see it. Like here. Like this. Not in a channel with about 15~20 active users who are mostly exchange operators, asset operators, or people who really don't give a crap.

Please put your confidence deficiencies away and Stop. Just, stop.

Taking every little shot you can, where you can, at people in some fail attempt to discredit them is no way to become a respected member of the community.
It just takes away from your own credibility.

If you wish to discuss your usage of BitFunder, please feel free to post it in the proper thread.
Please try to read the thread first for known issues so people don't see it as more trolling.
If you see something that is obviously wrong with your BitFunder account, we have had a ticket system since it was setup.
Most all tickets are handled fairly quickly.

And certainly, if you have any questions about BitFunder and want to ask in irc, please feel free. Smiley

BitFunder - Asset Exchange Marketplace https://bitfunder.com
WeExchange - AUD (Direct Bank Transfers), CAD (Interac), USD BTC Exchange & Options Trading
burnside
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January 29, 2013, 10:56:36 PM
 #3

You quoted your own lie:

Quote
[12:05] <Ukto> on btct, I can fill my account with 100btc, put up to 100btc orders on each asset, and withdraw the 100btc

The withdrawal page looks like this:

Quote
Current Balance: XX BTC
Fee Reserve: 0.0005 BTC (for potential client transaction fees)
Max Withdraw: XX-0.0005 BTC
On the Order Book: YY BTC (not on the order book: XX-YY BTC)

If you take out the max, it cancels orders on the book.  Like you said, you didn't try it.  You just stated that it could be done with zero actual hands-on knowledge.  The very definition of FUD.

The rest of your post is a sorry tl;dr excuse for spreading FUD.

How about I go and post about how on BitFunder every time I place an order it charges me 2x the stated fee.  Oh.  wait.  I wouldn't do that.  It's not true, and I didn't try it.


I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
Ukyo
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January 29, 2013, 11:36:39 PM
 #4

As covered in the irc just a minute ago.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ruh8ax2w9vwgdj/withdraw.png

I was in the middle of an irc chat, having just a normal conversation, saw this, plus no documentation  that I could see, believed initially that I would be able to withdraw the amount shown. End of story.

Generally, regardless of having a withdraw address, most sites will tell you up front what is available.

I understand as you said, you hold me in higher regards. When using your site, I am still a user, and trying to understand it as well.
I had no intentions to make any largely public statement of definitive fact to the world that btct does X or Y.

I was having a conversation in irc and trying to understand your custom system and you have blown it out of proportion.

So for the record, for anyone who gives a crap about any of this nonsense.

I am sorry for not understanding btct's system and clicked on everything, and not doing everything perfectly right off the bat, and discussing my stumbling on irc.

You apparently you cannot withdraw up to X funds based on your highest placed bid on any asset.
While the system does show your balance, it will not tell you what you can/not withdraw until you provide it with a withdraw address.

Can we end this ridiculous thread?

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January 30, 2013, 12:02:29 AM
 #5

Can we end this ridiculous thread?

Please do.  It makes you both look bad.
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January 30, 2013, 12:46:30 AM
 #6

You apparently you cannot withdraw up to X funds based on your highest placed bid on any asset.
While the system does show your balance, it will not tell you what you can/not withdraw until you provide it with a withdraw address.

You're still wrong.

You CAN withdraw all your funds.  And then any orders you have that you can no longer cover will be cancelled - allows you to pull your cash out if you want without first having to go around cancelling orders.

It tells you how much you need to leave in so no orders are cancelled (the largest amount you have committed to bids on a single asset) - then it's up to you if you want to withdraw more and have some orders auto-cancelled (if that happens you get a pop-up telling you what orders were cancelled).
Ukyo
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January 30, 2013, 12:47:49 AM
 #7

You apparently you cannot withdraw up to X funds based on your highest placed bid on any asset.
While the system does show your balance, it will not tell you what you can/not withdraw until you provide it with a withdraw address.

You're still wrong.

You CAN withdraw all your funds.  And then any orders you have that you can no longer cover will be cancelled - allows you to pull your cash out if you want without first having to go around cancelling orders.

It tells you how much you need to leave in so no orders are cancelled (the largest amount you have committed to bids on a single asset) - then it's up to you if you want to withdraw more and have some orders auto-cancelled (if that happens you get a pop-up telling you what orders were cancelled).

Ah, thanks for that. Smiley

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WeExchange - AUD (Direct Bank Transfers), CAD (Interac), USD BTC Exchange & Options Trading
burnside
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January 30, 2013, 01:48:40 AM
 #8

Can we end this ridiculous thread?

Please do.  It makes you both look bad.

It is unfortunately an ugly topic.  It is important that people do not get the wrong impression that btct.co orders are not backed by coin.  They are.

#bitcoin-assets is where many, many influential bitcoin investors and site operators hang out and BTC Trading Corp is a public company with a reputation to maintain.

If Ukyo had a concern he could have filed a support ticket, asked questions on the forums (public or PM), or emailed me.  Regarding the backing of the order book, he wasn't asking questions.  He was making statements.  I left it out of the post, but further down he was joking about exploiting the (non-existent) hole.  Obviously anyone who reads this at a glance is not going to ever trust the platform enough to sign up for an account.  Now I have to try to undo that damage.

Ukyo put me in a no-win where I am stuck choosing between "looking like a dick" and "looking incompetent".  I'd much rather be a dick.


I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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January 30, 2013, 01:59:49 AM
 #9

Can we end this ridiculous thread?

Happy to.

I have a healthy respect for BitFunder and all the hard work you've put into it.  Hopefully we can get along a little better in the future.

Cheers.

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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