Altcoins are a prisoner's dilemma and not possible to beat Bitcoin

[Vlad2Vlad]

Any good programmer who has remained productive and not tried hard to screw up his life (and health), has more money than he really needs.

The important goal to such a person should be to work on something interesting and which can give back to society happiness, creativity, jobs, productivity, and diversity.

This is the reason I am not interested to create a crypto currency that has no adoption being merely a ticker symbol and marketing for inciting greater fool theory gambling.

Of course the speculators will find a way to get at my coin if I launch one. And they will serve a free market role. I can't stop the free market. The difference is I plan to have significant user adoption which must exist BEFORE YOU DISCOVER THE TOKEN, so that it is the real deal in terms of a for-use token. And I will make no promotions nor give any speculators any reason to think they should base their expectations for gains on any actions of any entity or developers. Because I am not creating investment securities. I am creating a social network and a token for use on that social network (and beyond). And you all have confirmed that speculators aren't basing their expectations for gains on any fundamentals thus efforts of the developers. Instead they are basing their expectations on promotion and hype. Since I won't be doing promotion or hype targeted to investors of a crypto currency, they won't be basing their expectations on any particular promotion or hype. Their resultant free market speculation is based on their assumptions about the value of for-use tokens of the sort I want to create. I will not promote nor promise any one any gains. The for-use tokens will exist to facilitate microtransactions on the social network.

I will make no effort to get my token listed on any centralized exchanges and I am happy if it takes as long as possible before being listed on a centralized exchange. I am working on decentralized exchange.

Making it more difficult for get-rich-in-a-week speculators is a goal of mine. Long-term HODLers will find their way to accumulate.

P.S. I have been working on the logo for the new 6 letter domain name for the social network. I am very pleased with the name I thought of and also after some horrible logo designs were submitted to me, I sketched my own on paper and I think it is quite good. Now waiting for a professional graphic designer to complete the final logo and they also confirmed my latest sketch is good. My logo is superior to Ethereum's and I am only spending $200 (plus my time), not $18 million.

Ethereum didn't spend $18 million on a logo but I get your point.

Soon alts will me no more, big money is taking over so you should hurry up. 

Good luck!

[Vlad2Vlad]

TPTB, I saw on one of your closed accounts that you are BCX.  Is this true?  The original BCX?  Thx.

[illodin]

Ethereum didn't spend $18 million on a logo but I get your point.

Maybe his point was that the only useful thing Ethereum project has produced is the logo. 

[alyssa85]

Bitcoin might have been decentralised in the past, but now the mining is controlled by about seven Chinese guys who can do deals in a room, with the added vulnerability of being behind a firewall and under an authoritarian govt that cracks down on anyone who challenges them.

True decentralisation would be mining spread evenly around the world, so if some of them got taken out, the others would survive and continue. PoS at least means that the staking wallets are decentralised, which is an improvement on what has happened to BTC.

[alyssa85]

Ethereum didn't spend $18 million on a logo but I get your point.

Maybe his point was that the only useful thing Ethereum project has produced is the logo. 

That's not quite true though is it? Here's the latest on uses of ethereum:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ethereum-powered-augur-brings-its-beta-microsoft-azures-blockchain-cloud-1549630

[TPTB_need_war]

TPTB, I saw on one of your closed accounts that you are BCX.  Is this true?  The original BCX?  Thx.

That was satire because many people were accusing me of being BCX back when he threatened to attack Monero and I tried to figure out if there was a technical hole to attack from.

My technical investigation is how I first realized that Cryptonote is theoretically susceptible to combinatorial unmasking (and especially from overlapping rings).

The BCX incident is one I would like to forget. I was sincere but it didn't really reflect well on me that BCX was apparently lying so he could short Monero (or that is the conjecture). I did not short Monero.

[TPTB_need_war]

Ethereum didn't spend $18 million on a logo but I get your point.

Maybe his point was that the only useful thing Ethereum project has produced is the logo. 

That's not quite true though is it? Here's the latest on uses of ethereum:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ethereum-powered-augur-brings-its-beta-microsoft-azures-blockchain-cloud-1549630

Your counter-example is entirely broken.

[mmortal03]

The next problem is, even if by some miracle of gawd this actually did happen, you would be degrading all credibility of your own crypto as a store of value at the same time.  If a random turdcoin could pass or even get close to Bitcoin, it would mean that at any time your new coin could just as easily be overthrown and go to zero.  This means the only logical move is likely to go with BTC or just stay out of the game period.

I've never understood this line of reasoning. If an altcoin passes BTC in marketcap, it, by definition, *won't* be some random altcoin, it'll be a legit altcoin. You seem to be begging the question by describing it as a "random turdcoin" passing or even getting close to Bitcoin. If it passes Bitcoin it'll be the rare, legitimate altcoin, not some random one -- one that actually offers something valuable that Bitcoin isn't offering.

So, it actually *wouldn't* mean that at any time this new coin could *just as easily* be overthrown and go to zero, because it *wouldn't* be easy for an altcoin to pass Bitcoin, and, if one does, it could very well be based on something fundamental as to *why* it passes Bitcoin, and Bitcoin also wouldn't necessarily have to go to zero in the process.

[kiklo]

The very label of Alt coin is a way to try and degrade all other coins in a PR view compared to BTC.

The simple fact is BTC is the equivalent to a Ford Model T (Great in it's early days)


But BTC is no Match for the NEW Coins in comparison,


It is Foolhardy to believe one of the NEW coins in Time will not overtake BTC.  

 

[r0ach]

The very label of Alt coin is a way to try and degrade all other coins in a PR view compared to BTC.

The simple fact is BTC is the equivalent to a Ford Model T (Great in it's early days)


But BTC is no Match for the NEW Coins in comparison,

It is Foolhardy to believe one of the NEW coins in Time will not overtake BTC.  


 

You're trying to pump a $50,000 market cap, PoS clone coin and calling Bitcoin "the model T"...

[kiklo]

You're trying to pump a $50,000 market cap, PoS clone coin and calling uᴉoɔʇᴉq "the model T"...

You can make a Profit with my coin, try making a profit with your BTC.
My coin has a blockspeed of 30 seconds your BTC can takes hours to confirm a transaction, no contest.  
BTC requires enough electricity for a small country, my coin can be run as a minimized app on a already running PC.
My Coin does not require New ASICS be purchased every year.

Proof of Stake is the only way to make money in the long run , buying Sterile BTC or Tokens that can not make more of themselves is Pure Speculation.

Example: It is like a farmer buying a herd of cattle that are sterile. He only makes money if the market is higher when he has to sell, if the market is down when he has to sell , he just wasted his Time & Money, where if he buys a herd of cattle that can produce Offspring, he is able to keep his original amount of cattle and sell off any excess , therefore giving him a
Lifetime of Revenue verses a One-time Completely Speculative Time Sensitive Investment

FYI:
ZEIT"S Marketcap is bouncing between $150,000 and $500,000 marketcap for the past few days.
ZEIT briefly touched  $ 1,067,604,802 , so we Broke CoinMarketCap Volume Reporting.
ZEIT would have been in 2nd Place directly under BTC.  
ScreenShots included
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=487814.msg13636387#msg13636387


FYI2:
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves.
Proof of Work Coin have no intrinsic value ,
1. because they can not make more of theirselves
2. Without ASICS they can not even move , so all of the value is in a ASICS that becomes Worthless in a year due to increased difficulty.
Sorry No Profit to be made with PoW coins in the long run, I even go so far as saying PoW is the Coin's world version of Negative Interest Rates Policy.

[r0ach]

FYI2:
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves.

LOL

[kiklo]

FYI2:
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves.

LOL

I know Funny Right, all of that Logic , and all you can do is laugh.  
Well at least you aren't the crying type since you now Know PoW will eventually collapse.


 

FYI: You remind me of this guy.

The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty—a fad.
    - Advice from a president of the Michigan Savings Bank to Henry Ford's lawyer Horace Rackham. Rackham ignored the advice and invested $5000 in Ford stock, selling it later for $12.5 million.

That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced.
    - Scientific American, Jan. 2, 1909.

[generalizethis]

Many alts are more efficient at doing what they do than BTC would be at integrating them or adding them as a service layer. The whole Bitcoin is king argument hinges on bitcoin's market being so big that no one would miss the efficiency (or novelty, such novelty) garnered by using alternatives, but Bitcoin's market is neither big enough to warrant this "king once and for all time" label (see Bitcoin's marketcap versus gold and fiat), nor is the efficiency we are talking about slight enough for it to not matter (see hoops you have to jump through to anomize BTC through a mixer or a privacy coin).

Bitcoin has yet to rise out of the speculation stage, and until it does, all bets on "one coin to rule them all" are off. Not that mass adoption alone has secured any technology enough to where it is safe from cheaper more efficient methods. Instead of writing about a prisoner dilemma that doesn't really exist (why should cryptocurrency fail if Bitcoin fails or isn't top dog?) the Bitcoin maximalists (supremacists) should find those coins that do things more efficiently (cheaper) and diversify--they'll have hedged themselves and avoided faulty logic that wastes everyone's time (you first need to determine that altcoins can't survive without Bitcoin to make the prisoner's dilemma--you can't assume it into being). And every day an unproven Altcoin sits near a billion dollar marketcap, the less and less plausible this argument becomes.

Enough fiat to Altcoin exchanges (maybe even one) and the tether that holds Bitcoin atop the cryptocurrency food chain is gone. How likely is this to happen, about as likely as someone staying anonymous to omnipresent secret-hording intelligence.

[kelsey]

FYI2:
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves.

LOL

100% agree.......................................................................... .................with the LOL

[kelsey]

i agree with much of generalizethis' reply.

though people lose sight of whats trying to be achieved with developing a p2p currency.

trust and adoption is critical for a currency to be successful over and above any innovative bells and whistles. if people just jump to what ever is percieved as the latest innovative crypto of the day/week/month then it makes it very difficult for any to get sustained decent adoption.

this could be used as the argument to sticking to bᴉtcoᴉn; so crypto can achieve decent adoption, however i think its naive to think bᴉtcoᴉn is the ideal one for this purely based on it being (well in many peoples eye) the first.

[kiklo]

100% agree.......................................................................... .................with the LOL

Totally Understandable, you PoW miners and ASICS salesman are the last of your Breed,
with your numbers dwindling , it is best for you to huddle together and reminisce about the good old days with you made fiat with your ASICs.
Unlike the past 2 Years where the PoW mining has not even broke even with your ASICS & electricity costs.

I entered the BTC market a few years ago when BTC was $450 for 1 BTC, it only took a few months of mining to realize , I was losing fiat and would never even break even , so since the PoW miners always talked that I could make Fiat by mining , I tried again with LTC, only took 1 month to realize that was also a failing venture.
By then I realize you were a bunch of fools or liars to keep promoting a failing PoW system.

So I took one last try with Proof of Stake , Purchased ZEIT for 22 litoshi , today I can sell for over 175 litoshi , if I had to sell it now , or I can just sell my stake and keep my principle or wait for an even higher price.  For the mathematically challenged 175/22 = 7.95 x my original investment , so in less than 2 years my PoS coins has been a better investment for me that any of the PoW crap you guys offer. Plus there is so little market resistance to our coin going up , it will be at least double what it is now next year if not more.  

 

FYI:
BTC was $450 , when I entered Crypto and what is it now after ~2 years
Today it was $417.51 , and that is high compared to earlier in the year.
Keep Lying to yourself that PoW is the future, and you will LOL yourself right into the poor house.   

[kelsey]

FYI2:
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves.

LOL

100% agree.......................................................................... .................with the LOL

Totally Understandable, you PoW miners and ASICS salesman are the last of your Breed,
with your numbers dwindling , it is best for you to huddle together and reminisce about the good old days with you made fiat with your ASICs.
Unlike the past 2 Years where the PoW mining has not even broke even with your ASICS & electricity costs.

I entered the BTC market a few years ago when BTC was $450 for 1 BTC, it only took a few months of mining to realize , I was losing fiat and would never even break even , so since the PoW miners always talked that I could make Fiat by mining , I tried again with LTC, only took 1 month to realize that was also a failing venture.
By then I realize you were a bunch of fools or liars to keep promoting a failing PoW system.

So I took one last try with Proof of Stake , Purchased ZEIT for 22 litoshi , today I can sell for over 175 litoshi , if I had to sell it now , or I can just sell my stake and keep my principle or wait for an even higher price.  For the mathematically challenged 175/22 = 7.95 x my original investment , so in less than 2 years my PoS coins has been a better investment for me that any of the PoW crap you guys offer. Plus there is so little market resistance to our coin going up , it will be at least double what it is now next year if not more.  

 

FYI:
BTC was $450 , when I entered Crypto and what is it now after ~2 years
Today it was $417.51 , and that is high compared to earlier in the year.
Keep Lying to yourself that PoW is the future, and you will LOL yourself right into the poor house.   

seriously i wasn't countering (or caring) about any of your arguments either way, i was merely LOL'ing at the utter stupidity of that one quoted statement 


(for the record i'm no miner, nor a fan of pow or pos, i'm here because i'm a big fan of the possibility of a genuine p2p currency, which imo is yet to exist).

[TPTB_need_war]

(for the record i'm no miner, nor a fan of pow or pos, i'm here because i'm a big fan of the possibility of a genuine p2p currency, which imo is yet to exist).

Very motivational. Thank you for sharing.

[kiklo]

seriously i wasn't countering (or caring) about any of your arguments either way, i was merely LOL'ing at the utter stupidity of that one quoted statement  

(for the record i'm no miner, nor a fan of pow or pos, i'm here because i'm a big fan of the possibility of a genuine p2p currency, which imo is yet to exist).

So you have no concept of mining , not a fan of PoW or PoS,
Only stupid thing I see is you wasting everyone's time, by commenting without any knowledge.
At the very least , you should give some details of this genuine p2p currency that does not exist yet or have you given that 0 Thought also.

 


FYI:
Intrinsic Value
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp

The intrinsic value is the actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors.
This value may or may not be the same as the current market value.

PoS Coin's Ability to Reproduce more of it's own kind does give it an intrinsic value, that a sterile coin or token does not have.

Easy Agricultural comparison like the Intrinsic Value of a Seed
http://x-fin.com/stocks/usa/SEED

And for the PoW comparison
The ASICS holds the Intrinsic Value not the coins they produce.
Since they can be used to reproduce other PoW coins of the same algo.
Problem, their value drops due to increasing difficulty which kills their profit potential.
At most switching to newer PoW coins with the same algo is the only real way to get more than a year's use of an ASICS .