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Apolladan
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June 09, 2011, 02:29:55 PM
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PabloW
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June 09, 2011, 02:44:52 PM
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A system created by people needs people to coolaborate. It doesnt just grow like a plant.
rezin777
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June 09, 2011, 03:17:52 PM
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Who's asking for artificial regulations? We are asking for self-regulation.

You don't eat 3 pizzas, 2 fried chickens, and 4 pounds of bacon a day because you can, do you? That would be insanely bad for your health.

Bitcoin is not perfect. Nothing is. It's damn good though.

People who care about the security of the network will choose to regulate themselves to promote a healthy network.

No one is calling for imposed artificial regulations. And if they were, I would argue with them the same as I do with people who mine on deepbit.

I'm trying to let people know that there is a better way and hoping they will choose correctly.

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June 09, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
 #4

It's like a libertarian wanting more government control and regulation.  

If Bitcoins really are this susceptible to abuse, then the developers need to fix it somehow with tweaks to the algorithm.  

Bitcoin is decentralized by design. If the users chose to centralize the network into a single point of failure, there's nothing the concept can do about it. It's like democracy. Every one is free to vote for whoever they want, but somehow a majority of the voters are misguided and vote for the guy who takes you to war for 10 years over a pissing contest. What you are experiencing here is not design failure, it's PEBKAC.

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But for the sake of argument, assume everyone continues to mine on deepbit, and it grows past 50% of the share.  Then what?  Do we blame it on deepbit or do we go back to the drawing board and scrap the current algorithm?  If there is a flaw in the system, we should break it and fix it instead of acknowledging that it exists and telling people what to do to circumvent it.

As usual, easily said from someone who doesn't understand the internal mechanics and weaknesses of a decentralized network relying on public contributors. You're saying tires can't guarantee 100% control of your vehicle on a road, so instead of teaching people how to drive properly, we should work on anti-grav cars.

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rezin777
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June 09, 2011, 03:38:11 PM
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That's kind of a flawed analogy, since someone eating 3 pizzas and 2 fried chickens along with 4 pounds of bacon is only hurting his own health.  I personally wouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't tell other people how to live their lives.  

But for the sake of argument, assume everyone continues to mine on deepbit, and it grows past 50% of the share.  Then what?  Do we blame it on deepbit or do we go back to the drawing board and scrap the current algorithm?  If there is a flaw in the system, we should break it and fix it instead of acknowledging that it exists and telling people what to do to circumvent it.  

And if you want to make money with Bitcoin, you are hurting yourself by ignoring network health, if something happens partially because of your ignorance.

As I said, Bitcoin isn't perfect. Mining was originally done on CPUs by individuals. Then GPU mining came about because it was faster. Then pooled mining came about because it reduced variance. And here we are today.

The flaw in the system is that someone with enough dishonest hashing power can disrupt the system. The network can ignore the dishonest fork and continue on. The system won't break. But people may consider Bitcoin to be untrustworthy if such a disruption is easy to achieve. Condensing a majority of the mining power into one pool is a step in the direction of making that easier. The fix is voluntary: don't condense honest mining power.

Until someone creates an impenetrable system (good luck) we use the best we have. We can either make the system more impenetrable or less impenetrable, it's up to the users. I'm suggesting the users work towards making the system more impenetrable. If you want to ignore that, or wait for a perfect system, that is your choice.

rezin777
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June 09, 2011, 03:46:37 PM
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Except no one is centralizing anything.  If everyone wants to go to a specific pool and no one is forcing them, they should be allowed to do so.  

They are indeed centralizing the network. They should be allowed and they are allowed to mine wherever they want. Why are you so argumentative?

We aren't suggesting rules! We are suggesting people promote a healthy network for their own good.

Ignore it if you want. If something bad happens because of the centralization of the Bitcoin network and investors stop buying, don't complain that there was nothing that could be done.
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June 09, 2011, 03:49:05 PM
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Yeah, I'm sure the vast majority of Bitcoin users are mining/investing out of the goodness of their heart and not for profit. 

Also, telling people what to do usually doesn't work.  You can preach all you want but at the end of the day if the system is that susceptible to disruption and can be breached that easily, then those flaws should be addressed internally. 

Telling people not to use a specific pooling service is like putting a band-aid on a cancerous tumor. 

Oh my... I never said anyone was doing anything out of the goodness of their heart. I said "if you want to make money", I don't know why you are intentionally misinterpreting what I say.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm pointing out what I see as a problem. You can ignore it if you want.
goatpig
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June 09, 2011, 04:19:07 PM
 #8

Except no one is centralizing anything.  If everyone wants to go to a specific pool and no one is forcing them, they should be allowed to do so.  

And tires are not deregulated.  You can not just open up a tire shop and start selling tires.  

That's kinda funny. You didn't read enough into the centralized Bitcoin argument and too much into the tire one.

The argument goes like this: Bitcoin is designed around decentralization because it is a needed feature for a proper store of value/currency. As such, security has been built around it while keeping in mind that the users will maintain it decentralized, since their motive for using Bitcoin is that it satisfies the needs of a proper store of value/currency.

You thus have a simple premise: Everyone can contribute data to the block chain. This identifies 2 groups: honest users and attackers. You then need to establish a set of rules that allows you to identify data emitted by honest nodes as valid data, whereas data contributed by attackers is corrupt and should be dismissed. Bitcoin uses proof of work rewarded by coins. Meaning valid work is identified as the most powerful contribution (difficulty and chain length), and it provides more profit than using the same power to cheat the network.

You should understand from this premise that if honest nodes contribute corrupt data, then that data is considered valid. This is the situation DeepBit is creating. The system is built to ward against attackers. If honest nodes partake into a behavior that is corrupt, then there is no difference between honest nodes and attackers, and the system it breached.

This is why DeepBit is a problem, because it concentrates the power of the network into one point, effectively centralizing it. Whoever takes control of that point can inject corrupt data into the block chain at will. Whoever takes that one point down can overpower the network with much less resources than needed otherwise.

No one is claiming for regulations over mining. We are simply warning DeepBit users that for no valid reasons they are centralizing the power of the network, and that harms the security of this network by offering the very tools to attack it to whoever damn pleases. No one here is forbidding you from mining at DeepBit, we are simply telling you that if you don't walk away from that pool, you are artificially creating a great point of failure, all this at the cost of high fees and bad statistics.

Whichever way you look at it, if you purposefully drive yourself into a wall, you can't blame the car.

tl,dr: Bitcoin is built to ward against attackers. If users start behaving like attackers need them to, the security is moot.

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Since this attack doesn't permit all that much power over the network, it is expected that no one will attempt it. A profit-seeking person will always gain more by just following the rules, and even someone trying to destroy the system will probably find other attacks more attractive. However, if this attack is successfully executed, it will be difficult or impossible to "untangle" the mess created -- any changes the attacker makes might become permanent.

Yes, that attack can hurt the block chain beyond repair, and right now there is no need to spend a ton of resources over it, since honest users are willingly creating that situation.

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June 09, 2011, 04:36:23 PM
 #9

The point is that there is no motive for it.  Someone who has that much control over the network received it from willful participants.  This same person is also making hundreds, if not thousands of dollars a day.  Why would he give that up just to ruin himself?

We give presidents power based on the expectation that they will not nuke their own country.  We don't encourage people to vote for 2,000 different presidents.  Same concept. 

Let's say you want to attack the Bitcoin network. You have 2 solutions: Waste millions upon millions of dollars to turn a 10 stories high building into a gigantic barbecue, or take control of DeepBit. What do you do?

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rezin777
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June 09, 2011, 05:55:52 PM
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The point is that there is no motive for it. 

You really don't think there are some powerful people out there that might have a motive to destroy a decentralized currency? I would say that's a bit naive. The larger Bitcoin grows, the more motive these people have.
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June 09, 2011, 06:21:30 PM
 #11

The point is that there is no motive for it. 

You really don't think there are some powerful people out there that might have a motive to destroy a decentralized currency? I would say that's a bit naive. The larger Bitcoin grows, the more motive these people have.

++

The banksters are freaking out behind the scene because they know their dollars are about to become worthless in 10 years or less.  Bitcoin will be much stronger in 10 years.  Hell, right now it's almost the value of silver.  That's going to be a BIG DEAL when silver and bitcoins are worth the same amount.

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June 09, 2011, 07:00:42 PM
 #12

I see a lot of people citing a potential security breach if bitdeep hypothetically got too large.  Isn't that a flaw of the Bitcoin system itself?

Yes.

It is bitcoin's known, well documented weakness:  > 50% hash power

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June 09, 2011, 07:17:47 PM
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That's going to be a BIG DEAL when silver and bitcoins are worth the same amount.



Why?
bcpokey
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June 09, 2011, 07:19:40 PM
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This thread is an example of another bitcoin weakness:

9 post forum trolls getting peoples goats with same rehashed topics.
milk
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June 09, 2011, 07:27:12 PM
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Coming soon.. 0 USD. Thanx deepbit.
gigitrix
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June 09, 2011, 07:29:14 PM
 #16

We're asking, not forcing.
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June 09, 2011, 07:33:36 PM
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The banksters are freaking out behind the scene because they know their dollars are about to become worthless in 10 years or less.  Bitcoin will be much stronger in 10 years.  Hell, right now it's almost the value of silver.  That's going to be a BIG DEAL when silver and bitcoins are worth the same amount.

That's not true. There's more than 1.6 TRILLION dollars worth of silver. We have 180 million dollars worth of bitcoins. We'll only have a market capital similar to silver when it's 260 000 $ / btc.

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June 10, 2011, 12:06:29 AM
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Are you implying that Tycho is some kind of government agent who planned this from the very beginning, and is just waiting to hit 50% so he can take down the entire network?

It is my personal opinion, after talking to [Tycho] multiple times, that he does not appear to want to use his "power" for disruption of the bitcoin network, which is a good thing.  He seems to want the best for bitcoin users, and I applaud that.

But it has nothing to do with [Tycho] or deepbit specifically:  anything any pool gets close to 50%, that is a major problem for bitcoin.  It creates either a single point of failure, or a single point of evil.

Therefore, when deepbit was close to 50%, I was recommending that users avoid deepbit.  Now that deepbit are pulling back from the 50% mark, I am pulling back from my anti-recommendations.

Avoiding 50% control is critical for bitcoin's survival long term.  It does not matter if the pool operator is benevolent or not.  Bitcoin does not need such centralization.

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June 10, 2011, 12:07:37 AM
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It's like an anarchist group that votes in a leader.
rezin777
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June 10, 2011, 01:11:03 AM
 #20

The point is that there is no motive for it. 

You really don't think there are some powerful people out there that might have a motive to destroy a decentralized currency? I would say that's a bit naive. The larger Bitcoin grows, the more motive these people have.

Are you implying that Tycho is some kind of government agent who planned this from the very beginning, and is just waiting to hit 50% so he can take down the entire network?

No. If I meant Tycho, I would have said Tycho. I think Tycho is OK (besides the fact that he doesn't limit his pool size on his own). I said powerful people. Governments. Central bankers. People that run the world and like it that way. Why bother building a bunch of computers to harm Bitcoin when the work has already been done for you and all you need to do is use force to take control of it.

Mine where you want. You've already made up your mind, no amount of information is going to change that.

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