Where to order ASIICS?

[Hiver]

Just went to order an Avalon and they are OUT OF STOCK. Will there be a batch #3, and do you thin it would even be worth it at that time?

I'm in a similar boat. The BFL casing looks better and the power requirements seem to be a lot lower - but they don't seem to exist and I'm getting nervous about them ever existing. On the other hand the Avalons appear to have next-to-no documentation at present. I cant really get a finger on how they're set up or configured from their website. I'm sure I could spend some time researching it, but the lack of first-party info is a bit off putting.

In other words, I'm torn between vaporware and a bundle of questions. Someone present a compelling argument for either side please.

[1714165585]

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[1714165585]

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[creativex]

It's simple at the moment as you cannot order from Avalon until batch 3 opens anyway and placing an order with BFL will not result in a product anytime soon...if ever.

I suggest you wait for more information and then choose a vendor when there's a choice to be made.

[repentance]

I suggest you wait for more information and then choose a vendor when there's a choice to be made.

This is about the best advice which can be given to potential ASIC buyers right now. 

Keep in mind that Avalon tends to announce the opening of orders for their next batch at fairly short notice, so you need to check for updates regularly if you even want the option to place a Batch 3 order.

[Hiver]

Thanks for the advice. "Hurry up and wait" may not be the most exciting course of action, but it's probably the most prudent.

[Syke]

The BFL casing looks better and the power requirements seem to be a lot lower

It's going to be a very long time before power costs become an issue. GPUs are still quite profitable. What matters now is initial cost and time to delivery.

[OrangeVonPurple]

placing an order with BFL will not result in a product anytime soon...if ever.

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

From their website they looked pretty legit. Granted, I am lord of the noobs when it comes to BitMining and have 0 idea about any of this just yet.

[creativex]

placing an order with BFL will not result in a product anytime soon...if ever.

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

From their website they looked pretty legit. Granted, I am lord of the noobs when it comes to BitMining and have 0 idea about any of this just yet.

Zero. Yeah their website is lovely.

[opentoe]

I remember back in the day when BFL announced their ASIC products they would be ready, ummmm, last year in November or something. Now, here it is March already in 2013. I need to know how bad can a company predict when something will be available? I can give a guess, but when you are off by several months you really have to think they don't know what they are doing at all.  I want to know, WHY IS BFL STILL TAKING ORDERS FOR A PRODUCT THAT DOESN'T EXSIST. Isn't there a legal aspect about this? Is this a fraudulent act, to advertise something that isn't available or can't even be proven to be available? Man, those few people with those Avalons must be cashing in big time. How lucky they are. Last year I never even heard of Avalon.

[OrangeVonPurple]

My thoughts exactly!

[yucca]

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

They have produced and delivered some FPGA units, people seemed quite happy with them. So yeah they have produced products.

But BFL ASICs, I dont think any in the wild.

[creativex]

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

They have produced and delivered some FPGA units, people seemed quite happy with them. So yeah they have produced products.

But BFL ASICs, I dont think any in the wild.

Two problems with that thinking, though I thought along the same lines at one time. First, Thomas Van Riper also produced FPGAs and in fact is still selling them(BTCFPGA), yet he failed miserably at producing an ASIC product. Secondly and more  ominously, BFL had a stash of FPGA chips that they turned into FPGA products and when those ran out they stopped selling FPGAs. While this isn't in itself an indictment, the fact that they sanded the markings off the chips and didn't seek a new supply/continue selling is disturbing. To compound concerns they trashed the FPGA market when they ran out of chips to sell by announcing an ASIC product on a timeline they couldn't hope to meet.

[yucca]

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

They have produced and delivered some FPGA units, people seemed quite happy with them. So yeah they have produced products.

But BFL ASICs, I dont think any in the wild.

Two problems with that thinking, though I thought along the same lines at one time. First, Thomas Van Riper also produced FPGAs and in fact is still selling them(BTCFPGA), yet he failed miserably at producing an ASIC product. Secondly and more  ominously, BFL had a stash of FPGA chips that they turned into FPGA products and when those ran out they stopped selling FPGAs. While this isn't in itself an indictment, the fact that they sanded the markings off the chips and didn't seek a new supply/continue selling is disturbing. To compound concerns they trashed the FPGA market when they ran out of chips to sell by announcing an ASIC product on a timeline they couldn't hope to meet.

Sanding chips is not too bad, an attempt to prevent their HDL being copied.

Having a full custom ASIC produced is a very big deal compared to FPGA which can be done by hobbyists. Once they decided to take that path they had to dump all resources into it.

Time will tell if they deliver or obscond to some tropical paradise.

[MangoJ]

It is safe to assume that BFL is a scam at this point.
Avalon has "Jeff" and some "foundation" claiming they received working ASIICs.
However we do not see a flood of random users that we would see from all the other "normal" people that ordered from Avalon.
Instead we see 1 day old youtube accounts (from the aboved referenced "foundation") that have only 1 video on their youtube account.  One very low quality, short, uninformative, blurry video... from a group posing as a large professional "foundation".

You may guess where my point is going...

Has anyone "normal" verified ASIICS are even real yet?  Or just a scam?

I am still playing with GPUs!

[Inaba]

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

They have produced and delivered some FPGA units, people seemed quite happy with them. So yeah they have produced products.

But BFL ASICs, I dont think any in the wild.

Two problems with that thinking, though I thought along the same lines at one time. First, Thomas Van Riper also produced FPGAs and in fact is still selling them(BTCFPGA), yet he failed miserably at producing an ASIC product. Secondly and more  ominously, BFL had a stash of FPGA chips that they turned into FPGA products and when those ran out they stopped selling FPGAs. While this isn't in itself an indictment, the fact that they sanded the markings off the chips and didn't seek a new supply/continue selling is disturbing. To compound concerns they trashed the FPGA market when they ran out of chips to sell by announcing an ASIC product on a timeline they couldn't hope to meet.

For those of you playing at home and who aren't familiar with CreativeX, the above quoted post is a lie.  Go ahead and ask CreativeX to provide and evidence or proof for his statements. None will be forthcoming.  CreativeX is a known habitual liar, proven many times over.  The above post is yet another example of his inability to be truthful in his statements.  When confronted with his lies, he responds with ridiculous statements like "I don't need evidence to form an opinion." (This is an actual quote by CreativeX).  When backed into a corner, he will claim his lies, which is tries to pass of as facts, are just "opinions," but won't make that "fact" clear until it's pointed out, that's where the whole not needing evidence to form any sort of opinion comes from.  I mean, if you can just make stuff up like he does, why would you need evidence?

[creativex]

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

They have produced and delivered some FPGA units, people seemed quite happy with them. So yeah they have produced products.

But BFL ASICs, I dont think any in the wild.

Two problems with that thinking, though I thought along the same lines at one time. First, Thomas Van Riper also produced FPGAs and in fact is still selling them(BTCFPGA), yet he failed miserably at producing an ASIC product. Secondly and more  ominously, BFL had a stash of FPGA chips that they turned into FPGA products and when those ran out they stopped selling FPGAs. While this isn't in itself an indictment, the fact that they sanded the markings off the chips and didn't seek a new supply/continue selling is disturbing. To compound concerns they trashed the FPGA market when they ran out of chips to sell by announcing an ASIC product on a timeline they couldn't hope to meet.

For those of you playing at home and who aren't familiar with CreativeX, the above quoted post is a lie.  Go ahead and ask CreativeX to provide and evidence or proof for his statements. None will be forthcoming.  CreativeX is a known habitual liar, proven many times over.  The above post is yet another example of his inability to be truthful in his statements.  When confronted with his lies, he responds with ridiculous statements like "I don't need evidence to form an opinion." (This is an actual quote by CreativeX).  When backed into a corner, he will claim his lies, which is tries to pass of as facts, are just "opinions," but won't make that "fact" clear until it's pointed out, that's where the whole not needing evidence to form any sort of opinion comes from.  I mean, if you can just make stuff up like he does, why would you need evidence?

JZ, really man, stop trolling and produce a product. Preferably something besides a coffee mug, a t-shirt, or a box of fans. For those following along at home, BFL said:

Honest Abe we'll really ship ASIC mining gear in October 2012, but here it is March of 2013 and where are the products people paid for up to eight months ago? They also said they'd "scheduled shipments" in November, December, January, and February, yet no one has received what they've paid for, including those that paid eight months ago.

This chart sums up the problem with BFL perfectly:



This from BFL CS, but the unlabeled COO of BFL who masquerades here as an unaffiliated bystander said this on 2/19/13:

The currently estimated shipping time frame if you were to order today is the end of April or Beginning of May. This is just an estimate, and until we know how many units we can produce per day and specifically when the bulk of our chips will be ready, we can't give a more accurate estimate.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/1084-if-i-order-now-when-will-i-get-my-order.html

Why the discrepancy with such a tiny company? Why can't they all spit out the same estimates? Why are they endlessly wrong about shipping dates and why are there never any positive surprises? Is it even reasonable to expect honesty from a company founded by a convicted thief? Do yourself a favor and do not send them a penny or a satoshi until they prove they can deliver ASIC mining hardware. Their competition has delivered products already and they began work on their product months after BFL did.

[Inaba]

How's that proof coming for your above statement, CreativeX?  Managed to find any yet?  No?  I wonder why not...  Couldn't be because you're a liar, could it?

[creativex]

How's that proof coming for your above statement, CreativeX?  Managed to find any yet?  No?  I wonder why not...  Couldn't be because you're a liar, could it?

Proof of what? Clock buffers? Proof of fraud from BFL officers? Proof of non-delivery? Where can I buy a new FPGA on BFL's website? Link? What products are available for shipment from BFL right now? How is your salary paid Mr. COO? Pre-order funds perhaps? I know, just one more question you'll ignore...don't hurt yourself buddy. You prove something for once pal. You're the one taking in millions in pre-order $$$ and delivering nothing but hot air.

We both know you were personally lying to potential customers last quarter when you were suggesting that BFL could still ship in November then December and anyone that doubts this can search the forums for themselves. You accuse everyone that's critical of BFL of being a liar, while merrily trolling every thread that goes against your scammy little company until mods come along and lock it. Trouble is, you incompetent clowns don't know what you're doing and your song and dance is wearing thin even for true believers. The network hashrate rising with ASICMiner and Avalon coming online isn't helping much is it? First to begin development and last to deliver...if you had an ounce of pride you'd be too embarrassed to show your mug around here.

[opentoe]

So, are there no BFL products in the wild yet?

They have produced and delivered some FPGA units, people seemed quite happy with them. So yeah they have produced products.

But BFL ASICs, I dont think any in the wild.

Two problems with that thinking, though I thought along the same lines at one time. First, Thomas Van Riper also produced FPGAs and in fact is still selling them(BTCFPGA), yet he failed miserably at producing an ASIC product. Secondly and more  ominously, BFL had a stash of FPGA chips that they turned into FPGA products and when those ran out they stopped selling FPGAs. While this isn't in itself an indictment, the fact that they sanded the markings off the chips and didn't seek a new supply/continue selling is disturbing. To compound concerns they trashed the FPGA market when they ran out of chips to sell by announcing an ASIC product on a timeline they couldn't hope to meet.

For those of you playing at home and who aren't familiar with CreativeX, the above quoted post is a lie.  Go ahead and ask CreativeX to provide and evidence or proof for his statements. None will be forthcoming.  CreativeX is a known habitual liar, proven many times over.  The above post is yet another example of his inability to be truthful in his statements.  When confronted with his lies, he responds with ridiculous statements like "I don't need evidence to form an opinion." (This is an actual quote by CreativeX).  When backed into a corner, he will claim his lies, which is tries to pass of as facts, are just "opinions," but won't make that "fact" clear until it's pointed out, that's where the whole not needing evidence to form any sort of opinion comes from.  I mean, if you can just make stuff up like he does, why would you need evidence?

JZ, really man, stop trolling and produce a product. Preferably something besides a coffee mug, a t-shirt, or a box of fans. For those following along at home, BFL said:

Honest Abe we'll really ship ASIC mining gear in October 2012, but here it is March of 2013 and where are the products people paid for up to eight months ago? They also said they'd "scheduled shipments" in November, December, January, and February, yet no one has received what they've paid for, including those that paid eight months ago.

This chart sums up the problem with BFL perfectly:



This from BFL CS, but the unlabeled COO of BFL who masquerades here as an unaffiliated bystander said this on 2/19/13:

The currently estimated shipping time frame if you were to order today is the end of April or Beginning of May. This is just an estimate, and until we know how many units we can produce per day and specifically when the bulk of our chips will be ready, we can't give a more accurate estimate.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/1084-if-i-order-now-when-will-i-get-my-order.html

Why the discrepancy with such a tiny company? Why can't they all spit out the same estimates? Why are they endlessly wrong about shipping dates and why are there never any positive surprises? Is it even reasonable to expect honesty from a company founded by a convicted thief? Do yourself a favor and do not send them a penny or a satoshi until they prove they can deliver ASIC mining hardware. Their competition has delivered products already and they began work on their product months after BFL did.

I don't know what the deal is with all that Creativex is saying here, but misleading people for an entire year and taking in large sums of money for it should be considered criminal, no? I'm not the one to judge or even say that is the case. I hope everything works out in the end, but from the looks of it and from the history there may not be an "end".

[creativex]

I don't know what the deal is with all that Creativex is saying here, but misleading people for an entire year and taking in large sums of money for it should be considered criminal, no? I'm not the one to judge or even say that is the case. I hope everything works out in the end, but from the looks of it and from the history there may not be an "end".

BFL is a US company and as such is subject to FTC regulations, which they are currently violating, but please don't take my word for it, read all about it here:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Finally, you have the right to cancel orders that you can't fill in a timely manner, but you must promptly notify the customer of your decision and make a prompt refund.

[Inaba]

Right on queue... fails to provide evidence for his claims.  Why?  Because CreativeX is a l-l-liar!

Tell you what CreativeX, you provide some proof about your claims above and I will send you the very first ASIC off the BFL line, overnight, the moment it's available.  Hell, I will even hand deliver it to your house if you want.