[POLL] Are Altcoins Legal?

[Spoetnik]

So like the Poll title says.. so vote guys.

Can we consider them "Legal" ?

I think best i can tell in many countries there is a grey area..
A situation where no law says yes or no.
But does that make it ok ?

Take Piracy with MP3 music.. they pretty much tried to declare them illegal after the fact.
Laws being made up after the public is already doing something..
I think Crypto is like that.. we caught them off guard with this stuff.

So what do you think people if you had to give either a Yes or No answer to the question.

I would have vote NO.

[ArticMine]

It depends on the alt-coin, and the jurisdiction. The poll with two options is flawed.

[kiklo]

So like the Poll title says.. so vote guys.

Can we consider them "Legal" ?

I think best i can tell in many countries there is a grey area..
A situation where no law says yes or no.
But does that make it ok ?

Take Piracy with MP3 music.. they pretty much tried to declare them illegal after the fact.
Laws being made up after the public is already doing something..
I think Crypto is like that.. we caught them off guard with this stuff.

So what do you think people if you had to give either a Yes or No answer to the question.

I would have vote NO.

Question should any Virtual Coin be considered legal , including BTC & LTC for in reality they are no different than alt coins, just better financed.

I would say unless that Specific Government has placed a law stating that specific coin is banned , then it is all legal until they do. 
Or at the very minimum stating all forms of Barter are banned in that country.


 

[sinner]

question is too vague.  coins whose distribution model is mining, yes. ico coins... thats another issue. i dunno

[bigfryguy]

IPO and ICO will definately be considered illegal in the future, maybe after there are some rules in place they will return and be regulated, until then people will make money off them until someone decides to start filling prisons.

[Spoetnik]

Maybe it boils down to an issue of your personal take on the "grey area"
If there is no law in my country that says Yes or No then what ?
That is what i am trying to get you all to think about..
Where do YOU stand?

I don't think the absence of Law makes an activity "Legal"

Further more has there ever been a specific Law that attempted address this issue in ANY country yet, even once?

Bartering ? well i have seen some weird related laws in respect to that.
But think of this guys.. IF we are going to just *assume* that Crypto activities
are already a part of the Fiat related laws then we have a problem!
..because the old laws do not address Crypto technically.
And there is a gap if you think about it.

I sure as hell am not a currency or law expert but i can see basic things..
I do see how their is laws related to Fiat and Stock Market activity etc.
So..
Let's think back to "Martha Stewart" an old lady who baked pie's on TV..
She was arrested and maybe fined (insider trading) also then put in an orange jump suit and put behind bars!
SO think about it.. are we *assuming* the existing Financial related laws apply to Crypto ?

[kiklo]

Maybe it boils down to an issue of your personal take on the "grey area"
If there is no law in my country that says Yes or No then what ?
That is what i am trying to get you all to think about..
Where do YOU stand?

I don't think the absence of Law makes an activity "Legal"

Yep , afraid so ,
If there is no specific law , then it is legal,  

Example in the US, all of the dumb kids started snorting Bath salts and getting messed up, so they passed a law banning bath salts, until then available at your local store.
In July 2012, a bill that amended the Federal drug policy of the United States to ban "bath salts".[34] New York State banned the sale and distribution of the drug on May 23, 2011.[35]

They have to pass a law, otherwise there is no way to know what is legal and what is not.
We as Citizens cannot just guess at what our corrupt elite want, they have to be specific.  

 

FYI:
If Virtual coins were made illegal, do you thing they would go after the US Marshall service for selling all of the Bitcoins, they stole /(confiscated) from Dread Pirate Roberts.

FYI2:
Now if you wanted to exchange the word Legal with Moral
I don't think the absence of Law makes an activity "Moral",
I would agree with you on some other things , but virtual coins morally , I am good with.

[kiklo]

I think this is what you are looking for :
In the US , it cannot be illegal until a Law is passed.
In the UK, it is a possibility , they technically could change it after the fact, but odds are they won't)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

An ex post facto law (Latin for "from after the action" or "after the facts") is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed, or relationships that existed, before the enactment of the law. In criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed; it may aggravate a crime by bringing it into a more severe category than it was in when it was committed; it may change the punishment prescribed for a crime, as by adding new penalties or extending sentences; or it may alter the rules of evidence in order to make conviction for a crime likelier than it would have been when the deed was committed. Conversely, a form of ex post facto law commonly called an amnesty law may decriminalize certain acts. A pardon has a similar effect, in a specific case instead of a class of cases. Other legal changes may alleviate possible punishments (for example by replacing the death sentence with lifelong imprisonment) retroactively. Such legal changes are also known by the Latin term in mitius.

A law may have an ex post facto effect without being technically ex post facto. For example, when a previous law is repealed or otherwise nullified, it is no longer applicable to situations to which it previously was, even if such situations arose before the law was voided. The principle of prohibiting the continued application of such laws is called nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali, especially in European Continental systems. This is related to the principle of legality.

Some common-law jurisdictions do not permit retroactive criminal legislation, though new precedent generally applies to events that occurred before the judicial decision. Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the United States Constitution in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3 (with respect to federal laws) and Article 1, Section 10 (with respect to state laws). In some nations that follow the Westminster system of government, such as the United Kingdom, ex post facto laws are technically possible, because the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy allows Parliament to pass any law it wishes. In a nation with an entrenched bill of rights or a written constitution, ex post facto legislation may be prohibited.

 

FYI:
Technically the UK could pass an ex post facto law that stated everyone that owned a dog 2 years ago belonged in Jail for 5 years.
However the people by using Jury Nullification ,  could technically refuse to find the defendants guilty and thereby nullified that law.

By the Way Jury Nullification is the real reason behind the Jury system to keep Governments from passing laws that the public does not agree with.  
Sadly most Jurors feel more like prisoners than free people during the process and don't exert their rights, but meekly follow the court suggestions, and never debate to theirselves morally whether the Law is Just.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Some commonly cited historical examples of jury nullification involve jurors refusing to convict persons accused of violating the Fugitive Slave Act by assisting runaway slaves or being fugitive slaves themselves, or for breaking the refusal of American colonial juries to convict a defendant under English law.[2]

[Spoetnik]

i already said they made file sharing illegal after the fact.
Laws invented before MP3's existed etc..

And maybe there is laws already ?
Some guys are trying to say that the EXISTING financial Laws apply directly to crypto.
Canadian Tax law sure says so..

And yeah the seized Silkroad BTC the Marshall's were selling is a funny predicament LOL

I think what the various governments are *likely* to do is more important than my own speculation.
In other words my own personal interpretation of law is not going to help me much.

Take for example the homeless in my City were recently given tickets with Police supervision
for having shopping carts on the sidewalk. (blocking the side walk Tickets)
10 years earlier the city did the same thing and back then it was challenged in court
and the Police + city were found guilty for violating peoples rights.
..did not stop them from taking the carts away from homeless and ticketing them for sitting on the sidewalk.

So there is a massive contradiction in law all the time.
I also don't think laws on Drugs are comparable to financial law.

[ashkanb]

i'd say no they're not; as in there aren't many places that have, and would enforce, specific laws regarding most alcoins!
but to hell with legality; whoever asked for governments' opinion in the first place 
as far as i'm concerned, the fact that governments have a hard time regulating cryptos is one of their main advantages!

[kiklo]

i already said they made file sharing illegal after the fact.
Laws invented before MP3's existed etc..

Technically The act of File Sharing was never made illegal,

And the people that are prosecuted for sharing music or videos are charged under a pre existing Copyright & Patent law from 1988.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13351116
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright,_Designs_and_Patents_Act_1988

And to be honest , the RIAA attempts at stopping file sharing have been an utter failure, the only real reason such type of sharing is not as rampant as a few years ago , is that Online Services like YouTube & others are providing the content for free, so the young kids no longer store it , they stream it instead and share the links instead of the actual content itself.

And maybe there is laws already ?
Some guys are trying to say that the EXISTING financial Laws apply directly to crypto.
Canadian Tax law sure says so..

I believe you are referring to investment securities ,
one major issue with this reference

Regular investment (Say Mutual Funds) , you give your money to some intermediary , they hold or invest and then made a interest payment to you.
In the case of mutual funds, which, apart from their initial share offering, continuously offer shares for sale to the public, the prospectus used is a final prospectus. A fund prospectus contains details on its objectives, investment strategies, risks, performance, distribution policy, fees and expenses, and fund management.

Crypto , even ICOs , you buy the coins from that intermediary or a 3rd Party (Exchange) , so you own them and you decide when you sell or how long you hold , basically making you the one in charge of the investment , not the intermediary. You yourself determine your profit or loss directly , the intermediary is not dispensing any direct payments to you that would qualify.

So long as the intermediary is not holding any of your funds with the appearance of managing it as an investment to later be returned to you, there should be no issues.
(This is the majority of coins.)

If however an intermediary was holding your funds and stating he was managing it as an investment, then he could be affected by your investment securities scenario.

I think what the various governments are *likely* to do is more important than my own speculation.
In other words my own personal interpretation of law is not going to help me much.

At the end of the Day , it really boils down to this .

Do you Considered yourself a Free Man unwilling to be unjustly treated?
Or do you considered yourself a subject under a ruling party where you have no say in your future. (Basically a slave)

If you consider yourself a slave, then you want to appease the elite so they take pity on you and grant you scraps from their table.

If you consider yourself a Free Man, be aware the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Blood of Patriots & Tyrants.

Extract from Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith
   Paris Nov. 13. 1787.

the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.

 

[Spoetnik]

By the way in Canada the Tax on Crypto is like the Tax on Piracy.
In a response to the emergence of digital file sharing the CRIAA
instituted a Federally collected "Blank Media" levy.
If i go buy a package of Blank CD's the CRIAA gets paid a percentage of the cost. (even if you never download)
Yet i may get an email from my ISP any moment saying what i did downloading was a crime and illegal.
Is it ?

I don't think law is about feelings or so much about perspective.
Unless we are in a grey area..

Tricky topic i think because there is many Altcoin types and factors.
When you compare them to traditional stocks / currencies.

ANY feedback on this is good though.
I think the sharing of our perspective on things is highly valuable.
It was Satoshi who drove a visionary "idea" ..or Satoshi(s).
A single thought can be world changing and fast!

[MedaR]

question is too vague.  coins whose distribution model is mining, yes. ico coins... thats another issue. i dunno

Yes this is tricky question, but if we assume all alts are scams the same must go for bitcoin. Are they legal?
 Same as bitcoin, but they don't have much attention like BTC so they are mostly doomed
I'm not talking about premined coins, ico ipo scams..

[arbitrage]

I don't see why they are not legitim? Scammers will always try to reach your money and they will find different way, so we can't blame ALTS for human greed, they were used so many times for bad things, so they have now bitter taste.

[MedaR]

Alts are good opportunity for earning money, and this race in technological achievements is something that is needed for further progress. Bitcoin will stay best coin but we must have alts because we don't need monopol.