is it possible to send zero bitcoins

[schnuber]

Hi
Is it possible to make a bitcoin transaction where you would transmit exactly zero bitcoins from one address to another. Fee would be paid however. Are such transaction rejected by the protocol or the miners?

Greets

[1714183141]

1714183141

[1714183141]

1714183141

[achow101]

Hi
Is it possible to make a bitcoin transaction where you would transmit exactly zero bitcoins from one address to another. Fee would be paid however. Are such transaction rejected by the protocol or the miners?

Greets

It is possible, but I think they are considered non-standard. This means that it can be included in a block, just that (most) nodes will reject the transaction and not relay it.

[schnuber]

Since most node run the bitcoin core client you imply that it does by default reject such a transaction?

[achow101]

Since most node run the bitcoin core client you imply that it does by default reject such a transaction?

I think that it will but I haven't tried on the mainnet yet so I'm not sure. I just did one on the testnet and it went through but testnet has the standardness rules disabled so I can't know for sure if the transaction would be considered non-standard. You can try it yourself with a little bit of Bitcoin and see what happens.

[schnuber]

Ok, thanks

[watashi-kokoto]

Yes it is possible. A transaction sending exactly 0BTC (recieving 25BTC and fees) is called also a coinbase transaction. The coinbase transaction is part of every mined block. The miner receives the funds. This transaction is used to claim the mining reward, and is similiar to creating funds from thin air (writing a number to account number on a Bank computer) or printing money in a traditional system.

Only miners have the ability to do this.

[CIYAM]

I think the OP is wanting to create a non-coinbase tx that either has no outputs or perhaps an output with 0 as the amount (for what purpose?).

If it is non-standard then the only way you would be able to do this would be to send such a tx directly to a pool that allows for non-standard txs (are there still any of those around?).

[SebastianJu]

I think the minimum amount of bitcoins you can send in a transaction is 5320 satoshies. At least I was told the reason counterparty is using that amount for their colored coins is exactly that.

[ranochigo]

I think the minimum amount of bitcoins you can send in a transaction is 5320 satoshies. At least I was told the reason counterparty is using that amount for their colored coins is exactly that.

It was 5430 satoshis. The reason for this was because Bitcoin used this as a dust limit for the output. If the threshold isn't met, the client would see it as non standard and not relay it at all, thus hindering the chances of it getting confirmations. Given that majority of the network runs Classic 0.12 or Core 0.12, the dust limit is currently 546 by default with 1000 satoshi being the minimum relay fee. The dust limit would increase if the user rises the relay fee.

I think the OP is wanting to create a non-coinbase tx that either has no outputs or perhaps an output with 0 as the amount (for what purpose?).
-snip-

AFAIK, it isn't possible to create a transaction with no outputs and have it confirmed but it is possible to create a transaction with 0 satoshi as output but it is considered non standard.

[SebastianJu]

I think the minimum amount of bitcoins you can send in a transaction is 5320 satoshies. At least I was told the reason counterparty is using that amount for their colored coins is exactly that.

It was 5430 satoshis. The reason for this was because Bitcoin used this as a dust limit for the output. If the threshold isn't met, the client would see it as non standard and not relay it at all, thus hindering the chances of it getting confirmations. Given that majority of the network runs Classic 0.12 or Core 0.12, the dust limit is currently 546 by default with 1000 satoshi being the minimum relay fee. The dust limit would increase if the user rises the relay fee.

I think the OP is wanting to create a non-coinbase tx that either has no outputs or perhaps an output with 0 as the amount (for what purpose?).
-snip-

AFAIK, it isn't possible to create a transaction with no outputs and have it confirmed but it is possible to create a transaction with 0 satoshi as output but it is considered non standard.

You are right, it was 5430 satoshies. Don't know how I mixed that.

Well, in theory big pools could include such a transaction because they can include it in a block by circumventing the threshold. Might make sense for them when they want to run a service that uses the blockchain. But for the average user it won't be possible.

[jrpatking]

Your wallet will reject to send zero bitcoins+fee if the wallet uses minimum transaction fee. If you didn't specify transaction fee, then it will try to send your fee amount as transaction with zero fee.

[gmaxwell]

The Bitcoin consensus protocol allows creating and sending transactions involving no bitcoins what-so-ever.

Bitcoin Core currently regards such transactions as spam and will not relay them.

This is the basis by which proponents of various parasitic consensus systems (their term not mine) have argued that their new currency would completely displace Bitcoin even while using the Bitcoin network.

[jrpatking]

The Bitcoin consensus protocol allows creating and sending transactions involving no bitcoins what-so-ever.

Bitcoin Core currently regards such transactions as spam and will not relay them.

This is the basis by which proponents of various parasitic consensus systems (their term not mine) have argued that their new currency would completely displace Bitcoin even while using the Bitcoin network.

I understand now, if bitcoin core doesn't think zero bitcoin transaction as spam, then we would have 1000's of spam transactions. Can't imagine how the blockchain would be. We may need terra bytes of harddisk.

[gmaxwell]

I understand now, if bitcoin core doesn't think zero bitcoin transaction as spam, then we would have 1000's of spam transactions. Can't imagine how the blockchain would be. We may need terra bytes of harddisk.

The blocksize limit protects against that, but it's preferable to use the least amount possible, since even the limit is high enough to make running nodes burdensome; better to spend user's limited tolerance on actual Bitcoin transactions.