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Author Topic: OperationFabulous and 1400 BTC Bounty by NoAgendaMarket  (Read 13797 times)
BioMike
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January 21, 2011, 11:07:19 AM
 #81

The units are in btc/day.

Lets say you do a bid on a site for 2 btc/day, with a limit of 1btc.
This would mean that in 12 hours (assuming that you are the highest bidder and you actually pay the 2btc/day) you run through your limit and the bid will be deleted. If someone if bidding on the same page as well, but only 1btc/day , you only pay 1.1btc/per day (0.1 is the maximum value that is added, compared to the second highest bidder). In that case your ad will be placed longer, because it goes slower through your limit.

There is however one exception. Lets say you have multiple bids running and being displayed on sites, but the btc in your account is lower then the total of the limits in your bids, bids will be deleted when the funds of your account run dry, while the limit of your bids would not be reached yet.

The actual viewing is based on page loads. So the site loads, your ad is fetched and displayed and stays there until it is reloaded (if your bid is still active it is displayed again, else the one of a new bid is displayed). In your example, the views would be 100, 10 and 1. You would like the 100 more than the 10 or 1, so later, when the stats are implemented, look for the highest views.

Depending on the linking to your site, this depends if the viewer is using javacript or the non-javascript way.
Javascript: ad always links to your site
Non-javascript: if someone clicks your ad, while an other bid got active it will go to the site of the current highest bidder. Not nice, but there is no way to get the url to the viewer if he isn't using javascript. But you don't pay for that anyway.
However from what I see now is that most people use the javascript interface.
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ribuck
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January 21, 2011, 11:11:48 AM
 #82

The Operation Fabulous website is nice and fast. Clean, simple, and easy to navigate. But the form fields need better descriptions.

On the "Add a website" page, what are the units for "Minimum bid"? Bitcoins per day? It needs to say this on the form. And I can't find a way to change the value of the minimum bid after a website has been added.

If I want to have more than one ad on the same website, do I need to add the same website more than once? What if the multiple ads are the same size, can the system cope with that?

I'm a publisher and I also want to be an advertiser, but I can't find a way to get from one part of the website to the other. This can be easily solved by making the logo clickable so that it's easy to return to the home page.

The 5% commission is mentioned on the Publisher FAQ, and also mentioned when you add funds as an Advertiser. So is it applied before the bid amounts, or after the bid amounts, or both? I actually think it's quite reasonable to take more than 5%. The service needs to be profitable for the owners, so that it can continue to be developed and promoted.

In my publisher account I see this:

Quote
<...username...> placed an ad for 0.10000000149012 btc with a limit of 1.45 btc

...and the ad is showing correctly on my site. But this raises a couple of issues.

Doing financial calculations using floating point math always leads to problems. Sure, you can hide it by rounding to 2 places, but then you get anomalies like "I placed a bid for 0.1 bitcoins but it says my bid isn't enough, even though the minimum bid is 0.1 bitcoins" (because the minimum bid is being stored as something like 0.999999997 bitcoins). There are good decimal math packages for PHP already installed on most webhosts, if you're using PHP.

Also, what does that message actually mean? Does it mean that someone is bidding a maximum of 1.45 BTC (per day?) to advertise on my site, but because no-one else has bid, they are paying 0.1 BTC (per day?) which is my minimum. But the Operation Fabulous website says that when there is no competing bid, the advertising is free. So why does my publisher account show a balance of 0.5 BTC?

As an advertiser, if I click "Add a Bid" and select a site, I get to the Stage 2 form. Here it asks me to select an advertisement. But if I don't have any ads set up yet, it should say something like "You need to set up an advertisement before you can place a bid". It also asks for the "Height" and "Limit" of the bid, but it's not clear what these terms mean and how these amounts work.

Sorry to have so many questions, but I hope to become a heavy user as both publisher and advertiser.
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January 21, 2011, 11:14:48 AM
 #83

The units are in btc/day.

Lets say you do a bid on a site for 2 btc/day, with a limit of 1btc.
This would mean that in 12 hours (assuming that you are the highest bidder and you actually pay the 2btc/day) you run through your limit and the bid will be deleted. If someone if bidding on the same page as well, but only 1btc/day , you only pay 1.1btc/per day (0.1 is the maximum value that is added, compared to the second highest bidder). In that case your ad will be placed longer, because it goes slower through your limit.

There is however one exception. Lets say you have multiple bids running and being displayed on sites, but the btc in your account is lower then the total of the limits in your bids, bids will be deleted when the funds of your account run dry, while the limit of your bids would not be reached yet.

The actual viewing is based on page loads. So the site loads, your ad is fetched and displayed and stays there until it is reloaded (if your bid is still active it is displayed again, else the one of a new bid is displayed). In your example, the views would be 100, 10 and 1. You would like the 100 more than the 10 or 1, so later, when the stats are implemented, look for the highest views.

Depending on the linking to your site, this depends if the viewer is using javacript or the non-javascript way.
Javascript: ad always links to your site
Non-javascript: if someone clicks your ad, while an other bid got active it will go to the site of the current highest bidder. Not nice, but there is no way to get the url to the viewer if he isn't using javascript. But you don't pay for that anyway.
However from what I see now is that most people use the javascript interface.

Oh that's much better and different than what I thought!

I thought it was Joe sees it for 3 minutes + Jim for 4 + Tony 2 + 1 + 2+3+2+4+174 = done

I get it now, you are renting the whole thing regardless of hits the site gets.  

It is not really good for anyone for the ad to send to the wrong place after expiry, but I do see the problem.

This is really exciting and a great thing for bitcoin and bitcoin sites.


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January 21, 2011, 11:17:20 AM
 #84

I don't like being forced through mybitcoin when I'm going to pay myself anyhow. They make me do a captcha, at least it's an easy one, but still it's like 3 extra clicks. It's a good option, but I don't think it's hard to assign a deposit address to an account, that would take me 0 clicks on your page, well one for copy, but no link to follow.

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ribuck
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January 21, 2011, 11:20:56 AM
 #85

I see you answered part of my question while I was composing my previous post. But...

Lets say you do a bid on a site for 2 btc/day, with a limit of 1btc.

So this means the accounting is done hourly? That's good.

If my understanding is correct, the terms have these meanings:

"Bid": The maximum amount you are willing to pay per day, to run your ad on this site.
"Limit": The maximum total amount you are willing to pay for this "mini-campaign" for your ad on this site.

Perhaps that wording, or something like it, can be added to the website.

And from the Publisher side of things, I guess the term has this meaning:

"Minimum bid": The minimum amount you will accept per day for someone to run their ad in this space on your website, except that ads run for free if there is only one advertiser.

Finally, a feature request. I need a way to specify "no animated ads" to run on my sites. I want static graphics only.

Thanks!
BioMike
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January 21, 2011, 11:21:21 AM
 #86

It works, I have an ad on Quezi. Will it tell me as my time is used up? Or disappear all at once?

It will disappear, notification might be implemented later.

"This website requires a minimum bid of 0.10000000149012"

I guess that should be 0.1? But why that limit? 4 cents an hour for views that might be sitting minimized seems high to me.

The 5% fee is very reasonable, but I think it would be better to charge only if a match is made between a site and an advertiser. Also I don't see how to get my remaining money back if I've changed my mind or can't win a bid.

Small things. "Unsufficient funds" should be "Insufficient funds". Also "size of bid" or "amount of bid" is more appropriate than "height of bid"

Yes, many small bugs (the minimum bid warning, it's an rounding issue as things are stored as floats inherent to binary systems). I'm not a native English speaker. Thanks for the feedback.

I left transferring back out, because I thought people want to use it all to advertise (bid on other sites of they didn't win on one).
The paying fee over a "match" would be more difficult to implement reliably. This would also drain income considerably, as it is limited only to the amount of sites and not the users of the site.

I don't like being forced through mybitcoin when I'm going to pay myself anyhow. They make me do a captcha, at least it's an easy one, but still it's like 3 extra clicks. It's a good option, but I don't think it's hard to assign a deposit address to an account, that would take me 0 clicks on your page, well one for copy, but no link to follow.
It was easier to implement than doing the whole transactions tracking myself. I also don't like captchas. I plan to include other payment processors later.
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January 21, 2011, 11:25:20 AM
 #87

I'll try the other questions later, I have to go now (work).

Please keep in mind that this site is FAR from finished.
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January 21, 2011, 11:45:59 AM
 #88

It will disappear, notification might be implemented later.

Okay, it would be nice to know how much is really left in my balance if I were to cancel all my bids.

Yes, many small bugs (the minimum bid warning, it's an rounding issue as things are stored as floats inherent to binary systems). I'm not a native English speaker. Thanks for the feedback.

You do well, but I could tell. I'm happy to help.

I left transferring back out, because I thought people want to use it all to advertise (bid on other sites of they didn't win on one).

Surely most people will use it all. But what if my site closes? Or I desperately need the money back? If coins are going to be unrecoverable this needs to be very clear as most sites let you hold a balance that you can get back. Also, you should want people to keep large amounts on the site so they don't cut it too close and run out. But if I cannot recover the money I will put it on only as I need it even though it is a little more work. If I get busy I may forget and now the sites make a little less because they serve the next lower bid.

The paying fee over a "match" would be more difficult to implement reliably. This would also drain income considerably, as it is limited only to the amount of sites and not the users of the site.

I might not understand, but why not just take the cut from the site doing the advertising as it is paid to them? Whenever the command "Pay Quezi 1BTC" is issued make it instead "Pay Quezi .95BTC".

Ah, I don't mean take a one time fee. Still take a %, but only a % of money actually used for advertising. I think I was unclear before.

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January 21, 2011, 11:52:54 AM
 #89

I found another bug.

When I clicked "delete ad" it did not delete the corresponding ad, but the other one.

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January 21, 2011, 12:02:29 PM
 #90

I don't mean to swamp you. I hope it is helpful to have all this at once.

When I am logged in and type operationfabulous.com into my browser it takes me to the front page and I appear not to be logged in, but there is no "Log in" option. So I click "Start advertising with bitcoins" and now I am click "Register" and then I see that I am logged in, but I am still offered registration.

I think since it clearly still has me logged in, the home page should be told to greet me and give me a clear way into the page with all the options. If I want to register a new account it should let me, but log me out first.

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BioMike
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January 21, 2011, 03:31:58 PM
 #91

Ok, the bug about deleting the ads should be fixed now (there was another bug in the same code, fixed that as well, but shouldn't
have caused any problems for users).

About the payment, I think I might have found an easy way to to charge only active bids (the ones that display on websites).
Currently the fee is on 2 sides, when people add the btc to their account and when the payout of the publisher takes place.
Both are 5% fee. What I could do is move the fee of the advertiser to the payment of active bids.

About the 2 account system and the links on the main page for the account menu:
First, when you're logged in (as advertiser or publisher), click on the "Publisher" or "Advertiser" menu entry besides "Home". This brings you immediately to requested site. I can't put this on the main page, because there are different accounts for publishers and advertisers.
There are a few reasons for this:
1) The Publisher site is much more "simple", they only need to setup their website, whereas Advertisers have many more screens and options. I think that there will be more publishers then advertisers and don't exposing them the features they aren't planning to use is IMHO a pre.
2) Splitting the accounts gives some better security and is something that helps later when the site grows and I need to scale up.
3) Automatic payout for publishers would not be possible. Wink

Lets say you do a bid on a site for 2 btc/day, with a limit of 1btc.

So this means the accounting is done hourly? That's good.

It's even better. It is accounted per minute Wink

Finally, a feature request. I need a way to specify "no animated ads" to run on my sites. I want static graphics only.

Yeah, this was already on my todo list, but not high priority atm.

I will try to make some of the suggested improvements on the site this evening. I will also be in the #bitcoin-dev chat room.
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January 22, 2011, 08:49:55 AM
 #92

Ok, I've made some updates yesterday evening (mainly that forms have a bit more information).
I also changed the handling of the advertiser fees in the way as suggested above.
2 things:
- Advertisers have been compensated with 2 x the fee they paid for their transfer(s) and has been added to their account.
- The fee is now subtracted from the account funds of the advertiser that won a bid , for the duration of the bid, but not from the limit. This means that your account funds need to be more than the limit of your bid. (Bid will get deleted when account funds run dry).
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January 22, 2011, 09:06:27 AM
 #93

If I were a publisher I would be concerned that nasty porn or viruses or even just sites I hated would win and i would display them unknowingly for hours. Do you plan to implement a screening process?

I really like how it is now where I can update and ad or turn it on or off instantly. I'm just looking ahead to when people will inevitably have issues. I think you don't want to be the advertising site that put horse porn on MtGox for 2 hours Smiley

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January 22, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
 #94

If I were a publisher I would be concerned that nasty porn or viruses or even just sites I hated would win and i would display them unknowingly for hours. Do you plan to implement a screening process?

I really like how it is now where I can update and ad or turn it on or off instantly. I'm just looking ahead to when people will inevitably have issues. I think you don't want to be the advertising site that put horse porn on MtGox for 2 hours Smiley

As a Publisher you have the possibility remove a bid from the list on your site. Viruses should in principle not be possible (as long as a browser handles images safely), because only JPEG, GIF and PNG files are allowed. Although an ad could link to a site that has malware, there is nothing I can do about that.
Including a screening process would be possible, but that would mean that while a winning ad is not approved by you for your site, your site would display nothing or a placeholder. You would not get paid in that case.
Like the "no animated ad" option, I could also add a "no xxx ad" option. But Advertisers that don't check the ad as "Animated" or "XXX" would still be able to advertise on your site.
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January 22, 2011, 09:50:23 AM
 #95

If I were a publisher I would be concerned that nasty porn or viruses or even just sites I hated would win and i would display them unknowingly for hours. Do you plan to implement a screening process?

I really like how it is now where I can update and ad or turn it on or off instantly. I'm just looking ahead to when people will inevitably have issues. I think you don't want to be the advertising site that put horse porn on MtGox for 2 hours Smiley

As a Publisher you have the possibility remove a bid from the list on your site. Viruses should in principle not be possible (as long as a browser handles images safely), because only JPEG, GIF and PNG files are allowed. Although an ad could link to a site that has malware, there is nothing I can do about that.
Including a screening process would be possible, but that would mean that while a winning ad is not approved by you for your site, your site would display nothing or a placeholder. You would not get paid in that case.
Like the "no animated ad" option, I could also add a "no xxx ad" option. But Advertisers that don't check the ad as "Animated" or "XXX" would still be able to advertise on your site.

Yes, I meant it could direct people to a malicious site through the ad.

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January 22, 2011, 10:46:31 AM
 #96

Yes, I meant it could direct people to a malicious site through the ad.

That is always possible (even if content on a valid site changes after the ad is placed (e.g. a site defacement or through other (flash?) advertising on the site it links)). There is little I can do about that. If the malicious content is on purpose I can currently only remove the bid, ad, link or account of the advertiser in question and contact him/her through the email address (if that is valid).

Most browsers however check these days if the URL is reported for containing malicious content and refuse to load the site if that's the case.
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January 22, 2011, 11:01:15 AM
 #97

Yes, I meant it could direct people to a malicious site through the ad.

That is always possible (even if content on a valid site changes after the ad is placed (e.g. a site defacement or through other (flash?) advertising on the site it links)). There is little I can do about that. If the malicious content is on purpose I can currently only remove the bid, ad, link or account of the advertiser in question and contact him/her through the email address (if that is valid).

Most browsers however check these days if the URL is reported for containing malicious content and refuse to load the site if that's the case.

That makes sense, I guess it isn't something that can be perfectly policed. It's probably best to address problems if/when they arise than to implement annoying procedures before they are necessary.


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January 22, 2011, 11:28:44 AM
 #98

I've posted a new topic with poll to see what features are most popular to implement first.

Please keep other discussion in this topic.
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January 22, 2011, 11:30:03 AM
 #99

Like the "no animated ad" option, I could also add a "no xxx ad" option
A more workable option might be "No unapproved ads", so that an ad doesn't go live unless the publisher has explicitly approved it.
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January 22, 2011, 11:59:05 AM
 #100

Like the "no animated ad" option, I could also add a "no xxx ad" option
A more workable option might be "No unapproved ads", so that an ad doesn't go live unless the publisher has explicitly approved it.

Yes, I think in general a publisher ought have control of which bid is taken, it shouldn't automatically be the highest.

If two bids are close then a publisher will probably prefer the more attractive ad, or the more interesting site. This will give ad makers incentive to not have ugly ads. And if crappy sites have to pay a more to get accepted I don't think that is a bad thing.

Of course you can make the default to take the highest, but give the publisher override power.

Eventually it might be good to have a message system, so you can say "Hey, I only turned down your bid because the color clashes really badly with my buttons" or "Sorry, I find your site disgusting."

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