Just lost 190 bitcoins through Mt. Gox

[robocoin]

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF, I THINK TOO MANY BITCOINERS DON"T UNDERSTAND IT and frankly it is boring to keep iterating this point to people.

Your point has been made clearly again and again - and sadly *this* is *why* Bitcoin will *never* be used by average people *ever*.

Average people want *government guaranteed* money that will be refunded in the event of *theft* - so I think we can see clearly where the situation stands (and why no serious investors will actually invest a serious amount of money in BTC - the risk is simply too high).

CIYAM, this will be the case for another few years. I wouldn't try to make it easy for everybody. Because it doesn't matter how hard you work for the none-geek. Somebody will always face the evil. People lose money with traditional banks everyday. People are stupid enough to use credit cards on the net. Don't waste your good energy by fighting for this "human nature thingy".

In our everyday life we have to take responsibility, there are so many hints. If you don't get it, you might die.

[Zomdifros]

People lose money with traditional banks everyday. People are stupid enough to use credit cards on the net.

It's not stupid to use credit cards on the net, if it gets hacked, my bank will cover it. That's why I'm comfortable using credit cards on the internet. Same thing with bank accounts, if it gets hacked due to malware or whatever, my bank will reimburse it.

A safer bitcoin environment means more people trust using it means more fiat going into the system means more profit for all of us. I can't see why people are opposing this.

[robocoin]

People lose money with traditional banks everyday. People are stupid enough to use credit cards on the net.

It's not stupid to use credit cards on the net, if it gets hacked, my bank will cover it. That's why I'm comfortable using credit cards on the internet. Same thing with bank accounts, if it gets hacked due to malware or whatever, my bank will reimburse it.

A safer bitcoin environment means more people trust using it means more fiat going into the system means more profit for all of us. I can't see why people are opposing this.

Not in every case. You can buy any fucking geo IP (socks5) from some websites ending with .ru or .onion... You than have to prove it. (Sending your computer to the cops). Or lose the money.

[robocoin]

People lose money with traditional banks everyday. People are stupid enough to use credit cards on the net.

It's not stupid to use credit cards on the net, if it gets hacked, my bank will cover it. That's why I'm comfortable using credit cards on the internet. Same thing with bank accounts, if it gets hacked due to malware or whatever, my bank will reimburse it.

A safer bitcoin environment means more people trust using it means more fiat going into the system means more profit for all of us. I can't see why people are opposing this.

You pay fees for all those services, whether you know it or not.

No one opposes a "safer bitcoin environment". For starters, Bitcoin is as safe as you make it. It's up to the user to protect themselves.

Don't worry, eventually there will be companies you can pay to safeguard your bitcoins, just like with fiat today.

Absolutly, lots of work to do until Bitcoin is recognized as money (by the law and not by you). Lobbying in Washington and Brussels -> I am happy to have the Bitcoin Foundation. 

[Stephen Gornick]

So can you show me an example of someone that has used 2FA and has been rob?

It still requires secure computing.  If someone is sets up 2FA on a machine that has already been compromised or is compromised at a later time after setting up 2FA  (e.g., where the QR code that was scanned by Google Authenticator remains in the browser cache and is then obtained by an attacker) then there still could be a loss.

You also can't require 2FA cause not everyone has a smart phone, trust google, or can afford an yikuby key.

There is a javascript implementation so simply accessing from a second device (e.g., another laptop, for example) works without it being a mobile device:

Here is a fantastic guide: How to use 2-factor auth on mtgox, even without a smartphone (from a second device, of course, not from the same computer you log in on).
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=111943.0

But with $40 mobiles and $80 tablets coming (or decent $100 no-contract smartphone mobiles and $150 tablets here now), there are more and more people already having a device that works adequately for 2FA.

[Fiyasko]

This is the 3rd MtGox account I've heard of that's been cleaned out in the last week.  A new vulnerability, perhaps?

Same here, its making me worried that, either someone at mt.gox is stealing or perhaps people ARE STILL USING EASY PASSWORDS!
but its not even an easy pass that gets you caught usually, most of the time the guy uses the same pass on someplace simmilar but less secure, and Thats where the password gets "hacked" from.

Hopefully its just Some Hacker Smartiepants stealing coins with something like a keylogger

[TimJBenham]

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF, I THINK TOO MANY BITCOINERS DON"T UNDERSTAND IT and frankly it is boring to keep iterating this point to people.

Your point has been made clearly again and again - and sadly *this* is *why* Bitcoin will *never* be used by average people *ever*.

Does this matter?

Average people want *government guaranteed* money that will be refunded in the event of *theft* - so I think we can see clearly where the situation stands (and why no serious investors will actually invest a serious amount of money in BTC - the risk is simply too high).

Where can I get this *government guaranteed* money that will be refunded in the event of *theft*? What government refunds money in the event of theft? I've had fiat cash stolen from my wallet and no govenment gave me a refund.

[CIYAM]

Where can I get this *government guaranteed* money that will be refunded in the event of *theft*? What government refunds money in the event of theft? I've had fiat cash stolen from my wallet and no govenment gave me a refund.

Try opening a bank account or getting a credit card rather than using *cash* (was the point really that hard to understand or is just becoming a trollfest?).

Your bank (and yes pick one of the *big banks* please) IS government guaranteed and your Credit Card is backed by your bank.

Your BTC is insured/backed by no-one and nothing respectively.

I had finished inputting into this thread yesterday and will probably regret putting this in today - so I will refrain from further input - enjoy the arguing!

[fredbabb]

the police have no legal obilgation to protect you.

[sublime5447]

i'm going to be honest..

at this point in time.. there is no way this can be adopted my the masses who barely know how to use computers, are vulnerable etc..
people still fall for nigerian scams.. not everyone is "elite" as some members on here may think they are.. and frankly will never be.
the general population of the world will never be able to use this with so many security pitfalls and lack of guarantees (and no way to verify things).

by stating "bitcoin" owner beware.. doesn't really mean much. i'm sure if some big business like a hotel had all their coins stolen then most of the hotels would hear about it and never touch this thing.
the scammers (as will as in real life too) can easily ruin the whole ecosystem since it's much easier to jack stuff than in real life (bank heists are tough), you can do theft worth a lot of money and probably nothing is easier than with the bitcoins.

i'm not trying to be negative i just want people to understand with the way things are on the internets by solely claiming user beware does not create a good ecosystem

This is an excellent post. The tech guys want the world to work the way they think it should not the way it actually does imo.
 

[TimJBenham]

Where can I get this *government guaranteed* money that will be refunded in the event of *theft*? What government refunds money in the event of theft? I've had fiat cash stolen from my wallet and no govenment gave me a refund.

Try opening a bank account or getting a credit card rather than using *cash* (was the point really that hard to understand or is just becoming a trollfest?).

Your bank (and yes pick one of the *big banks* please) IS government guaranteed and your Credit Card is backed by your bank.

The government deposits guarantee has precious little to do with the refund of stolen account funds. The latter is just a bank policy (adopted with prodding from ASIC). Note the protection is far from absolute and can be voided by customer negligence. See ePayments Code https://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/ePayments-Code?openDocument#download.

Your BTC is insured/backed by no-one and nothing respectively.

If there were financial institutions accepting BTC deposits then they could offer the level of insurance they felt appropriate.

[CIYAM]

The government deposits guarantee has precious little to do with the refund of stolen account funds. The latter is just a bank policy (adopted with prodding from ASIC). Note the protection is far from absolute and can be voided by customer negligence. See ePayments Code https://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/ePayments-Code?openDocument#download.

Of course and absolutely true (I know what the government guarantee is - was just trying to *simplify* the explanation as it just doesn't seem to get through - and unfortunately although quite correct you probably haven't helped to make things clearer as that will now be picked up by the trolls to try and further muddy the waters ).

Your BTC is insured/backed by no-one and nothing respectively.
IF there were financial institutions accepting BTC deposits then they could offer the level of insurance they felt appropriate.

That is the point - there ISN'T and is not likely there will be for the foreseeable future (especially with some of the Bitcoin Foundation members publicly stating their opposition to banks, etc. - think a bank or insurance company will *want* to talk to them - although hopefully Gavin would).

[sublime5447]

Tons I have lost tons of money. You cant reason with these guys they are under the bitcoin spell. Most people wont touch bitcoin and it is because it is not safe or stable. I personally think the btc community needs a reality check. The masses will not adopt btc it is harder to use and get. It has to be easy and safe anyone can see that! blaming the user or customer how has that worked for you in the past Holiday? This community looks at new users as scammers I look at them as clients. 

[Merralea]

Extreme condolences. People suck sometimes.

[BitVegas]

I'm sorry to hear this . I am worried to use Mt Gox also but I do not know of any other way to have my $$ readily available to buy bitcoins when they drop

[ProfMac]

i'm not trying to be negative i just want people to understand with the way things are on the internets by solely claiming user beware does not create a good ecosystem

The bitcoins are worthless without the ecosystem.

[TimJBenham]

The government deposits guarantee has precious little to do with the refund of stolen account funds. The latter is just a bank policy (adopted with prodding from ASIC). Note the protection is far from absolute and can be voided by customer negligence. See ePayments Code https://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/ePayments-Code?openDocument#download.

Of course and absolutely true (I know what the government guarantee is - was just trying to *simplify* the explanation as it just doesn't seem to get through - and unfortunately although quite correct you probably haven't helped to make things clearer as that will now be picked up by the trolls to try and further muddy the waters ).

Alright. Let the trolls troll. As to your original concerns, I get them but they just imply that bitcoin isn't going to directly replace the fiat currency in the chequeing account of Joe Average. I don't think it means bitcoin would be better if it were yet another online soft currency.

Your BTC is insured/backed by no-one and nothing respectively.
IF there were financial institutions accepting BTC deposits then they could offer the level of insurance they felt appropriate.

That is the point - there ISN'T and is not likely there will be for the foreseeable future (especially with some of the Bitcoin Foundation members publicly stating their opposition to banks, etc. - think a bank or insurance company will *want* to talk to them - although hopefully Gavin would).

BTC doesn't have a great future if it is stays the province of drug dealers, tax avoiders, virtual currency geeks and the various shades of anti-banking zealot (I'm not sure it could handle the transaction volume that illegal gamblers generate). It could still grow considerably before it has filled that niche, but I would expect increasing state efforts to stomp on it. It is much more suited to be a reserve currency than a circulating currency. That appears to require some sort of financial intermediation.

[tooniz]

i'm going to be honest..

at this point in time.. there is no way this can be adopted my the masses who barely know how to use computers, are vulnerable etc..
people still fall for nigerian scams.. not everyone is "elite" as some members on here may think they are.. and frankly will never be.
the general population of the world will never be able to use this with so many security pitfalls and lack of guarantees (and no way to verify things).

by stating "bitcoin" owner beware.. doesn't really mean much. i'm sure if some big business like a hotel had all their coins stolen then most of the hotels would hear about it and never touch this thing.
the scammers (as will as in real life too) can easily ruin the whole ecosystem since it's much easier to jack stuff than in real life (bank heists are tough), you can do theft worth a lot of money and probably nothing is easier than with the bitcoins.

i'm not trying to be negative i just want people to understand with the way things are on the internets by solely claiming user beware does not create a good ecosystem

i totally agree, to be honest i think OP's situation must occur in real life online banking, poker sites, etc.

[TimJBenham]

So what is the http://www.bitcoinstore.com/, http://pizzaforcoins.com/, http://bitbrew.net/ , etc...

Small beer?

Bitcoin has a lot of places beside drugs, we need more but there are many so I think saying it is only for drugs and currency geeks is kinda outdated.

Sure we can probably get the pedophiles and the conspiracy guys onside too. Pretty soon we'll have a winning team!
 

[fcmatt]

A lot of legal bitcoin uses consist of middleman wanting a cut. That is about all they do. They rarely buy at true wholesale or manufacturer anything. So they are just an added layer upping the cost of a product. Services like web design or hosting are better though. I admit that.

So i can pay with bitcoin and have no protection or recourse. Or i can use a cc, have protection, get rewarded, extended warranty, etc.. The asic fiasco with tom showed just how true this is with cc.

I am not putting down bitcoin just to make fun of it. I am just explaining how i think when i make an online purchase. American express for the win. Avalon wanting bitcoin only and being so odd.. No sale even with hardware in the wild. The bitbrew website on the other hand deals with such small amount i would consider the risk.