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Author Topic: Cornell Study Recommends 4mb BlockSize for Bitcoin  (Read 1279 times)
chopstick (OP)
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March 31, 2016, 04:40:32 PM
 #1

Well, what say you smallblockers?

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/cornell-study-recommends-4mb-blocksize-bitcoin/

"According to the recently released position paper, On Scaling Decentralized Blockchains, 4,000 Bitcoin nodes were tested and per-node bandwidth performance was measured. The study found that 90%, of the then, 4565 bitcoin nodes (currently standing at more than 7,000), can continue to operate at 4MB blocks, translating to approximately 27 transactions per second, far more than the current practical limit of approximately 2.5 transactions per second."

Full PDF:

http://www.initc3.org/scalingblockchain/full.pdf

I really think the issue of node centralization is a myth. This study has concluded 90% of currently run nodes could handle up to 4mb. Furthermore, I believe that if the need arises for blocks bigger than 4mb this would correlate with a major BTC price increase. Most node operators would be easily able to afford bigger blocks with such a major BTC price increase, therefore you're still getting paid, and there will still be a diverse array of node operators, thereby avoiding "node centralization".
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March 31, 2016, 04:48:33 PM
 #2

the bigger bitcoin gets the more incentive there is in participating in the network.

it could be that node count will continue to rise even if every hobbyist home user is forced off because of 20MB blocks.

panju1
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March 31, 2016, 04:51:38 PM
 #3

Unfortunately, logic doesn't convince people.
People are driven by emotions when the blocksize debate comes up.
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March 31, 2016, 05:01:25 PM
 #4

The question in my mind, would not be if the nodes would be capable to handle the load, but rather if the increase in the block size will compromise it's security and open it up to all sorts of attacks and

spamming that are not really possible now. They did not elaborate much on the impact side chains and the Lightning network would have on the distribution of the load and the necessity to increase the

block size limit.  Huh Great to see that more testing is done, other than on the test net.

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thejaytiesto
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March 31, 2016, 05:42:28 PM
 #5

the bigger bitcoin gets the more incentive there is in participating in the network.

it could be that node count will continue to rise even if every hobbyist home user is forced off because of 20MB blocks.

What your retarded logic doesn't understand is that node count is irrelevant if all the nodes are put inside the same building.
1000 nodes distributed across the globe in random people's bedrooms is way more decentralized and safe than a million nodes running in a couple datacenters.
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March 31, 2016, 05:53:28 PM
 #6

The question in my mind, would not be if the nodes would be capable to handle the load, but rather if the increase in the block size will compromise it's security and open it up to all sorts of attacks 

Why should the increase in the block size compromise security?

 
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adamstgBit
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March 31, 2016, 05:57:51 PM
 #7

the bigger bitcoin gets the more incentive there is in participating in the network.

it could be that node count will continue to rise even if every hobbyist home user is forced off because of 20MB blocks.

What your retarded logic doesn't understand is that node count is irrelevant if all the nodes are put inside the same building.
1000 nodes distributed across the globe in random people's bedrooms is way more decentralized and safe than a million nodes running in a couple datacenters.
i'm suggesting 1000's of nodes in random people's bedrooms, will be replaced with, 1000's of nodes  in random companies offices.

chopstick (OP)
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March 31, 2016, 06:16:55 PM
 #8

the bigger bitcoin gets the more incentive there is in participating in the network.

it could be that node count will continue to rise even if every hobbyist home user is forced off because of 20MB blocks.

What your retarded logic doesn't understand is that node count is irrelevant if all the nodes are put inside the same building.
1000 nodes distributed across the globe in random people's bedrooms is way more decentralized and safe than a million nodes running in a couple datacenters.
i'm suggesting 1000's of nodes in random people's bedrooms, will be replaced with, 1000's of nodes  in random companies offices.

And not only that, but even with 4mb blocks, it will still be 1000's of nodes in random people's bedrooms.
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March 31, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
 #9

the bigger bitcoin gets the more incentive there is in participating in the network.

it could be that node count will continue to rise even if every hobbyist home user is forced off because of 20MB blocks.

What your retarded logic doesn't understand is that node count is irrelevant if all the nodes are put inside the same building.
1000 nodes distributed across the globe in random people's bedrooms is way more decentralized and safe than a million nodes running in a couple datacenters.
i'm suggesting 1000's of nodes in random people's bedrooms, will be replaced with, 1000's of nodes  in random companies offices.

And not only that, but even with 4mb blocks, it will still be 1000's of nodes in random people's bedrooms.


Yes still 1000's of nodes in peoples bedrooms plus a lot more companies that won't use bitcoin because of the scaling issues could start using it and setup even more nodes across the globe.

rizzlarolla
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March 31, 2016, 06:52:19 PM
 #10



Not sure the report "recommends" 4mb.
Just that it could technically be supported by "most" of the network.


calkob
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March 31, 2016, 07:34:01 PM
 #11

Surly an average block size would make running a full node impractical for the average home user?
NUFCrichard
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March 31, 2016, 07:38:36 PM
 #12

It is good information to have, but the debate has gone beyond reason now.

Everyone knows that there are problems now, and that there could be other problems if we fork, it is just opinion what is worse, our current problem or possible future problems...
franky1
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March 31, 2016, 07:49:06 PM
 #13

better summary..
if MILLIONS of people can UPLOAD game streaming while playing an online game. while also using voice chat... then the worry about 7000 people uploading 4mb when they relay transactions and blocks out is minimal to non

technology is not going to suddenly jump between 2016 -2017.. because the technology required is already here.. blockstreamers delay tactics are meaningless illogical crap. bitcoin can grow. without it going down the dark path of offchains

after all we are not going to gain 900million users overnight either so 2-4mb (2mb+segwit=3.8mb) is more then enough.

as for the 12 month delay.. again meaningless.. those who are full nodes dont need to take a year to upgrade. it can be done sooner

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
rizzlarolla
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March 31, 2016, 08:55:05 PM
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better summary..
if MILLIONS of people can UPLOAD game streaming while playing an online game. while also using voice chat... then the worry about 7000 people uploading 4mb when they relay transactions and blocks out is minimal to non

technology is not going to suddenly jump between 2016 -2017.. because the technology required is already here.. blockstreamers delay tactics are meaningless illogical crap. bitcoin can grow. without it going down the dark path of offchains

after all we are not going to gain 900million users overnight either so 2-4mb (2mb+segwit=3.8mb) is more then enough.

as for the 12 month delay.. again meaningless.. those who are full nodes dont need to take a year to upgrade. it can be done sooner


From Core roadmap,
https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/23/capacity-increases-faq/#segwit-size

Q Is the segregated witness soft fork equivalent to a 4 MB block size increase, a 2 MB increase, a 1.75 MB increase, or what? I keep hearing different numbers?
A the maximum size of a block becomes just under 4 MB.
Carlton Banks
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March 31, 2016, 08:55:50 PM
 #15

as for the 12 month delay.. again meaningless.. those who are full nodes dont need to take a year to upgrade. it can be done sooner

Lol at Mr. "I am not shilling for Big Blocks", when did you suddenly change your line in BS

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March 31, 2016, 09:54:31 PM
 #16

Interesting reading. Report says that "More aggressive scaling will in the longer term require fundamental protocol  redesign" but there should be no issue with 4MB. I guess we need more reports like this one to silence the doubters, but it's a good start.

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franky1
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March 31, 2016, 10:14:18 PM
 #17


From Core roadmap,
https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/23/capacity-increases-faq/#segwit-size

Q Is the segregated witness soft fork equivalent to a 4 MB block size increase, a 2 MB increase, a 1.75 MB increase, or what? I keep hearing different numbers?
A the maximum size of a block becomes just under 4 MB.


1mb max block size PLUS segwits projected 170-190% increase = 1.7mb-1.9mb of real data with the now useless 1mb max block size..

so logically a 2mb max block size PLUS segwit. has a 3.4mb-3.8mb of real data with the now useless 2mb max block size..

after all whats the point of the buffer named max block size.. if the real data is bigger... it kind of makes the variables purpose meaningless in regards to its name

blockstream wants to tone down their doomsday and then over exaggerate other doomsdays. but the 2017 end result for blockstream is actually more then 3.8mb max potential because confidential payment code adds another (proposed) 250bytes per tx.

so blockstreams end total capacity if everyone switched to their features is 5.7mb for about 7600 transactions..
where as traditional transactions can be 8000tc for 4mb

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
franky1
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March 31, 2016, 10:22:08 PM
 #18

as for the 12 month delay.. again meaningless.. those who are full nodes dont need to take a year to upgrade. it can be done sooner

Lol at Mr. "I am not shilling for Big Blocks", when did you suddenly change your line in BS

lol.. time for you to get a day job, im for more capacity without corporate control. that goes for both clasic and blockstream, im pretty sure you endlessly defending blockstream wont win you any part of that $55mill they have. so end the dream and start living the reality. start researching bitcoin instead of being spoonfed glossy leaflets from corporations.


I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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March 31, 2016, 10:35:44 PM
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Generally I think the paper is fine work. I think Christian Decker, Andrew Miller, Emin Gün Sirer are great assets to the technical community and I trust that they have made a good faith effort in realizing and communicating these results. The most valuable contributions of this paper are not in its comments on block size—for it reiterates what we generally already know—but in its design proposals, particularly variations on sharding consensus mechanisms.

For those that didn’t read the paper (including those spreading misinformation about its contents), here are some important points to note (with relevant quotes from the paper accompanying them):

1) The paper does not explicitly suggest that a 4MB block size is optimal. Rather, it explicitly suggests that block size should not exceed 4MB. That is to say, > 4MB is unsafe. We already know this based on previous testing—hence the 4MB capacity limit for Segwit at a 1MB block size. Greg Maxwell and Mark Friedenbach have spoken about this specifically many times.

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The block size should not exceed 4MB, given today's 10 min. average block interval

2) The results are based on a limited number of possible metrics and the authors suggest that they should be viewed as “upper bounds” (best case scenario) and not necessarily as the real limits of the network, which could be lower. A proper engineering plan should be based on “lower bounds”—never best case scenarios—to ensure maximum inclusivity, connectivity and robustness among peers.

Quote
Note that as we consider only a subset of possible metrics (due to difficulty in accurately measuring others), our results on reparametrization may be viewed as upper bounds: additional metrics could reveal even stricter limits.

3) In the same vein, the authors only contemplate the capacity for fully validating nodes to operate at scale. Whether operators of fully validating nodes will do so given increased bandwidth requirements is not clear, and requires a thorough game theory analysis. This is a matter of human incentive, not theoretical limits, as decentralization requires humans to make a conscious decision to run a node. We cannot presume that humans will do so if our target for throughput capacity is to use all bandwidth that node operators have access to in order to run a node. Personally, I have a fiber optic home connection with a 250GB monthly cap which costs roughly $100/month—side note: I also think expecting all full node operators to pay $100/month for internet access is excessive. Here is a breakdown of how I currently need to throttle upload bandwidth to handle 1MB blocks, and why 4MB blocks would force me off the network.

And yes, that means that in the adversarial 4MB Segwit case, I should not be running a full time node. I likely won't until further bandwidth-saving measures are implemented...or I may schedule certain parts of the month to run in blocksonly mode. Strict maxuploadtarget set at all times.

As a node operator I can tell you: we will never, ever devote all of our bandwidth resources to running a node. We will shut down our node instead. I believe this is a dangerous assumption for the authors to make:

Quote
We assume each node maintains a home-grade Internet connection (about $100/month) whose cost is amortized over all transactions.
 

4) The authors concede that they do not analyze metrics that affect, for example, mining distribution—missing from their analysis is the effect on mining centralization, particularly in China. It is a common misconception that the GFW restricts Chinese miners. Rather, the majority of hash power being inside the GFW means that Chinese miners are at a great advantage. Since the p2p network outside of the GFW is delayed in receiving blocks from Chinese miners, the majority of hash power within the GFW is not, ensuring that Chinese miners are better insulated from orphan risk than the rest of the world. This problem is exacerbated by larger block size, as propagation times inevitably increase across the network. Pieter Wuille’s simulator, without such regional considerations, comes to similar conclusions: larger block sizes mean decreased profitability for smaller miners, adding centralization pressures.

So two questions that the paper does not address: 1) Are we comfortable handing even more mining power to China by increasing relay times in the context of the GFW? And 2) Are we interested in seeing smaller miners/pools remaining viable (miner decentralization), or are we okay with the network being secured by ever-larger cartels of predominantly Chinese miners?

Quote
Our measurement results suggest that in today's Bitcoin overlay network, when nodes are ordered by block propagation time, the top 10% of nodes receive a 1MB block 2.4min earlier than the bottom 10%--meaning that depending on their access to nodes, some miners could obtain a significant and unfair lead over others in solving hash puzzles.

5) The authors conclude that the bitcoin protocol must fundamentally be redesigned for its blockchain to achieve significant scale while retaining decentralization.

Quote
Our findings lead us to the position that fundamental protocol redesign is needed for blockchains to scale significantly while retaining their decentralization.

6) One of the metrics the authors used to gauge relay limitations was the point at which some proportion of the network could experience denial of service attacks. They set this threshold at 10%, meaning that implementing a 4MB block size based on these results means consenting to 10% of the network being vulnerable to attack. If we want to achieve a higher level of effective throughput (i.e. a lower proportion of vulnerable nodes), we would need to reduce the block size.

Quote
If the transaction rate exceeds the 90% effective throughput, then 10% of the nodes in the network would be unable to keep up, potentially resulting in denied services to users and reducing the network's effective mining power. To ensure at least 90% of the nodes in the current overlay network have sufficient throughput, we offer the following two guidelines:
-The block size should not exceed 4MB

7) The authors concluded that the Cost per Confirmed Transaction (CPCT) is generally $1.40 - $2.90, and as high as $6.20. Compare this to the expectations that transactions ought to be free or as cheap as a few cents.

Quote
Our calculation suggests that, at the maximum throughput, the cost per confirmed transaction is $1.4 - $2.9, where 57% is electricity consumption for mining. If the de facto Bitcoin through-put is assumed, the CPCT is as high as $6.2.

There are other lesser issues of note, but the point here is that the conclusions drawn should be viewed in the context of the limits of the study, which openly admits leaving important metrics outside of its scope. I think the reiteration of the following is a monument to the work that Core is actively doing towards scalability:

Quote
More aggressive scaling will in the longer term require fundamental protocol redesign.

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