Is Socialism losing against Capitalism?

[benedictonathan]

The reason why I asked this is purely based on Observation. Particularly the following:
1. Soviet Unions collapse.
2. China embracing a capitalist form of economy.
3. Fall of other communist and socialist regimes.
4. Increased foreign relations of Socialist countries with the United States (as the case of Cuba and Vietnam)
5. In my observation, no gains in terms of the struggle of the communists and leftists around the world.

This is an honest question as I do not have sufficient knowledge of the Socialist's plight and experiences.

Thank you for your response.

[Moloch]

First, look up the differences between communism and socialism

Second, look into the socialist countries that are doing well... Sweden, Norway, Denmark, most of Europe, etc

Third, name a capitalist country besides America

Fourth, America is in the shitter right now, and dragging the whole world down with it... America is most definitely not doing well... I'd go so far as to say America is fucked and another recession/depression is about to smash us in the face again

This is mainly due to the inherent corruption in the capitalist system... it's not a good system at all... it breeds corruption and the most corrupt will always end up with all the money... this is why 50% of the world's money is held by only 63 people

[benedictonathan]

First, look up the differences between communism and socialism

Second, look into the socialist countries that are doing well... Sweden, Norway, Denmark, most of Europe, etc

Third, name a capitalist country besides America

Fourth, America is in the shitter right now, and dragging the whole world down with it... America is most definitely not doing well... I'd go so far as to say America is fucked and another recession/depression is about to smash us in the face again

This is mainly due to the inherent corruption in the capitalist system... it's not a good system at all... it breeds corruption and the most corrupt will always end up with all the money... this is why 50% of the world's money is held by only 63 people

Thanks for the input. I've never imagined that Communism and Socialism are somewhat two separate ideas (Maybe because that is what I heard of during my college days). Also never thought that the progressive countries you mentioned are socialist.

I am also somewhat surprised that even most of Americans themselves do somewhat agree with your idea that their country is in a bad state. There are also people who regard the rise of China as a good thing too, though I just heard it from opinions of some of the folks in my locality. Maybe most would think the opposite.

[TECSHARE]

First, look up the differences between communism and socialism

Second, look into the socialist countries that are doing well... Sweden, Norway, Denmark, most of Europe, etc

Third, name a capitalist country besides America

Fourth, America is in the shitter right now, and dragging the whole world down with it... America is most definitely not doing well... I'd go so far as to say America is fucked and another recession/depression is about to smash us in the face again

This is mainly due to the inherent corruption in the capitalist system... it's not a good system at all... it breeds corruption and the most corrupt will always end up with all the money... this is why 50% of the world's money is held by only 63 people

It is no secret the USA is in a depression right now, but capitalism and socialism/communism are just two sides of the same corrupt coin, both sides run by bankers. I might add that a large part of the reason the USA is failing economically right now is its more recent turn towards socialism. Capitalism is designed to build up capital while communism/socialism is designed to strip that wealth and tear down societies. It is just a global system of controlled opposition. Red vs blue, republican vs democrat, capitalism vs communism, only on a global scale. Just look at the soviet flag, it is composed of two ancient symbols, the hammer and the sickle. The hammer represents building society up, and the sickle represents tearing it down. It is right in your face. The Federal Reserve Bank even funded The Soviet Union for many years as Russia went bankrupt some time in the late 1800's. As far as socialism and communism being different, this is a lie because socialism is designed to segway the target society into communism. Read some of the writings of Lenin where he clearly describes it as such.

Capitalism > Democracy > Socialism > Communism > Repeat

Both sides are equally corrupt. The benefits of socialism/communism are short lived and end in the society consumes itself once there are no more people left to rob, just like cancer. Also don't fool yourself, America is not the only country in the shitter right now economically speaking, and you can not truthfully put the entire blame for this on the USA. USA does not have a monopoly on corruption. Additionally there are PLENTY of other capitalist nations, your implication that there aren't is asinine.  Also China is very clearly a capitalist state even if they still harbor some communistic tendencies. The only difference is the capitalism is under control of the state. The state is not your friend no matter where you reside or what ideology you support.

As far as Europe doing well, I beg to differ. It's socialist tendencies are what is driving the massive immigration influx, and frankly Europe can not defend itself from the on coming onslaught coming down upon it, especially since most of Europe bans the private ownership of firearms. This  leaves most of its residents defenseless against the radical militants which make up the majority of the so called "refugees", most of which are fighting age males not even from Syria. The welfare state in Europe is very clearly what is motivating this massive wave of immigration, in addition to militant goals of jihadist conquest.

In conclusion, both "sides" of this ideological conflict are corrupt and just two faces of the same bankster elite. However, given that capitalism is at least focused on the creation of wealth and keeps all the services we all depend on functioning, it seems to me that this is the better choice of two evils at the moment until things can be changed or reformed. Socialism and communism gives zero incentive to people to actually work and provide services resulting in societal decay at a much more rapid pace. Don't be sucked into this US vs THEM controlled opposition Hegelian dialectic. Ultimately both are losing strategies and tools of the elite.

[AzibLala007]

no i do not think so that socialism is losing against capitalism.
capitalism is in some countries not all.
and socialism is in almost many countries.
so i think that a win against capitalism.

[Daniel91]

The reason why I asked this is purely based on Observation. Particularly the following:
1. Soviet Unions collapse.
2. China embracing a capitalist form of economy.
3. Fall of other communist and socialist regimes.
4. Increased foreign relations of Socialist countries with the United States (as the case of Cuba and Vietnam)
5. In my observation, no gains in terms of the struggle of the communists and leftists around the world.

This is an honest question as I do not have sufficient knowledge of the Socialist's plight and experiences.

Thank you for your response.

I think that you are mixing communism and socialism.
Communism and Socialism are not the same thing.
Communist failed in most countries in the world.
China modified their social system and accepted free market and capitalism in economy.
In the same way, with police they strongly protect their political system.
Real socialism we have today in Scandinavia, Sweden, Finland, Norway etc.
Social benefits people in this countries have from the government are great.
Socialism is always concentrate (and protect) on peoples needs first while capitalism is concentrate (and protect) on capital first.
Communism always was unrealistic utopia and in every country turned to brutal dictatorships.
In the long term, I think socialism will win because people will demand it, that politicians and government protect and help more average people, their voters, than corporations and big companies.

[Moloch]

Another thing to point out is that the form of communism you are familiar with (soviet union), it not the ideal communist setup by Karl Marx...

It's not that communism is bad, it's simply that the soviet union was not really communism... it was a dictatorship in disguise as communism

Similarly, the US is not a democracy, nor is China a republic (people's republic of China)

People misuse labels to confuse you...

America claims to be a democracy... yet it is set up as a republic, not a democracy... and, it's not even a republic because the people who write the laws are lobbyists... paid by corporations and billionaires... making America effectively an oligarchy...

This is the stuff they won't teach you in school... America is an oligarchy, masquerading as a democratic-republic

[gentlemand]

There's never been pure capitalism. Check how the US defence industry works. Looked at in the cold light of day it would be classed as appallingly socialist. The contracts are doled out equally between the contractors to keep them happy.

In certain cases like Lockheed they were told flat out that they were the better candidate but the contract had to go to Northrop to make sure they stayed afloat.

[Lethn]

Second, look into the socialist countries that are doing well... Sweden, Norway, Denmark, most of Europe, etc

lol yeah, they're doing real well, with Europe on the brink of collapse and the native population getting fucked over by incompetent leaders who refuse to acknowledge that any real issues exist like yourself along with high tax rates and idiotically expensive living costs.

Honestly, the fucking denial is unbelievable.

[Moloch]

Second, look into the socialist countries that are doing well... Sweden, Norway, Denmark, most of Europe, etc

lol yeah, they're doing real well, with Europe on the brink of collapse and the native population getting fucked over by incompetent leaders who refuse to acknowledge that any real issues exist like yourself along with high tax rates and idiotically expensive living costs.

Honestly, the fucking denial is unbelievable.

You act like its worse than America...

You don't think American leaders are doing the same and worse?  American leaders bankrupt other countries for profit...

Honestly, the fucking denial is unbelievable.

It's a shame you believe all the nationalist propaganda you have been fed by the American media... sorry, I've actually visited other countries... it's pretty nice there

[Lethn]

It is fucking worse than America, while America's not great by any means and it's going to collapse along with the rest of Europe acting as if socialism is some fucking paragon of economics and is bringing joy and happiness to the world is a total fucking lie and nobody here is pretending that Capitalism is perfect so pretending as if Socialism is great is fucking disingenuous at best. Go and look at the country called Venezuela, that is what happens when you have a country that decides to go fully socialist, I will not be dragged into your bullshit ideology by force if I don't want to when there are so many examples of it failing miserably.

Also, at least in America people still have the second amendment despite constant attempts by the left to get rid of it so they can defend themselves, meanwhile in Europe we are completely fucked if people decide to go on a rampage.

[Moloch]

It is fucking worse than America, while America's not great by any means and it's going to collapse along with the rest of Europe acting as if socialism is some fucking paragon of economics and is bringing joy and happiness to the world is a total fucking lie and nobody here is pretending that Capitalism is perfect so pretending as if Socialism is great is fucking disingenuous at best. Go and look at the country called Venezuela, that is what happens when you have a country that decides to go fully socialist, I will not be dragged into your bullshit ideology by force if I don't want to when there are so many examples of it failing miserably.

Also, at least in America people still have the 2nd Amendment despite constant attempts by the left to get rid of it so they can defend themselves, meanwhile in Europe we are completely fucked if people decide to go on a rampage.

Venezuela is one of the countries that America has bankrupted for profit...

Their hyperinflation is a direct result of American meddling

[Lethn]

Yeah yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

[Moloch]

Yeah yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

Sounds like something a man might say when he's wrong and doesn't have a legitimate response...


The difference between socialism and capitalism is simple:

The leader of Iceland (socialist country) was just forced to resign because he used Mossack Fonseca...

Americans are not on the list from Mossack Fonseca... do you know why?

In America (capitalist country), the billionaires do not need to outsource their corruption to Panama for tax evasion... all they need is to set up the corporation in Delaware... we have corruption built into the system... no need for a 3rd-party country to hide our assets... we're openly corrupt in America

[Lethn]

You just said Socialism works and that Capitalism is corrupt and in the same thread just said that the leader of a country you assume to be Socialist a leader of one of them was forced to resign over tax evasion. If there's one thing I've learned on my short time on my planet is the biggest difference between Socialists and Capitalists is that the majority of Socialists are brazen and insufferable hypocrites while Capitalists aren't, at least they don't lie about their intentions and just want to make money.

Stop bullshitting me and trying to make it out as if I'm in the wrong when I point out you are, you aren't going to convince me of anything by lying.

[Moloch]

You just said Socialism works and that Capitalism is corrupt and in the same thread just said that the leader of a country you assume to be Socialist a leader of one of them was forced to resign over tax evasion. If there's one thing I've learned on my short time on my planet is the biggest difference between Socialists and Capitalists is that the majority of Socialists are brazen and insufferable hypocrites while Capitalists aren't, at least they don't lie about their intentions and just want to make money.

Stop bullshitting me and trying to make it out as if I'm in the wrong when I point out you are, you aren't going to convince me of anything by lying.

Apparently you didn't read, so I'll repeat it...

Rich people are corrupt in every country... the difference is, America built tax-havens into the system, so they don't need Panama to do their dirty work... Delaware does that job for America...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_haven

Within the United States, Delaware is considered the pre-eminent corporate haven for both domestic and foreign large public corporations, while Nevada, Wyoming, Alaska, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands are corporate havens for small closed corporations.

Also... when the banks destroyed the economy... America handed them even more money... Iceland put the bankers in jail

Capitalism is corruption at its finest

[Lethn]

You're attacking Capitalism purely to cover up Socialisms flaws and it's pretty obvious the more desperate you get about it.

[Mike Christ]

Don't bother arguing with Moloch, he doesn't listen and only reads from very specific sources, thus his knowledge base is akin to swiss cheese.  He's still asserting mixed-economy nations are socialist even after I corrected him (and he only asserts this because he's parroting the aforementioned sources, not because he's actually given it any thought.)  He's also saying Sweden--that place where Muslims are literally overrunning the nation and breaking their welfare system--is doing "well", along with the rest of Europe.  Yeah, apparently Europe is doing well, according to Moloch and his very specific sources; bet you can't guess which ones *cough Forbes The Guardian Huffington Post CNN cough*.

I wouldn't say socialism is losing against capitalism exactly; socialism is self-defeating in the sense that, while capitalism allows us to build up prosperity rapidly, socialism allows us to burn prosperity rapidly (usually for ideological reasons like "feed and house the needy" and whatnot.)  Thus, socialism only ever follows capitalism and only works until there's nothing left to "burn", in which case you either collapse as a nation or go back to being capitalist.  In this sense, socialism always loses against capitalism, socialism is made possible only because of capitalism, and a socialist system which rejects its capitalist counterpart will inevitably fail as it always has and always will, in the same way that someone who spends more than they earn will inevitably go broke and, in the case of having nobody to help them, die.  In the sense that supporters of socialism are losing against supporters of capitalism, I think this was the general case up until recently, as far as the highest-functioning nations went.  It's mostly just the lower-intelligence people who don't like capitalism, because they know they can't compete; lower-intelligence people always prefer socialism in the presence of higher-intelligence people because it's perceived as an easy way to even the playing field: just steal from the higher-intelligence people.  What's in it for the higher-intelligence person to accept socialism?--ultimately they just lose.  There is a real incentive for this individual to reject socialism, just as there's a real incentive for the other individual to accept socialism: the socialist has something to gain, because the socialist is worse off in the presence of someone who is better off.

In other words, socialism prevails when you have a great disparity of intelligence, which can be translated as a great disparity of wealth since higher-intelligence people fare better in their careers.  In a nation where everyone's stupid, or in a nation where everyone's smart, socialism would be pointless because there's either nobody to steal ("redistribute") from (in the case where everyone's stupid) or there's no incentive to steal (in the case where everyone's smart.)  To say that socialism is losing against capitalism (as far as supporters of either go), is to say that there's a small or shrinking gap in intelligence differences.  In nations which low-intelligence people are flooding (e.g. much of Islam) in high-intelligence nations (e.g. much of Europe), socialism is ramping up (until the point that there's nothing left to pillage, which is happening soon for many countries.)

So in this sense, socialism has been winning as of late, particularly considering the west.  But as more and more high-intelligence people grow tired of these low-intelligence people, things are bound to swing in the other direction, or bound to head down the path of the Soviet Union and Cambodia etc.

[Moloch]

I am simply pointing out the differences between the two systems...

You are attacking me personally (ad-hominem) rather than attacking my argument

What's with the personal attacks?  Are you 12?

If you believe capitalism is better... bring some facts and evidence, not insults

[TECSHARE]

Also... when the banks destroyed the economy... America handed them even more money...

You are absolutely right The private central bank known as The Federal Reserve Bank destroyed the economy. You know who was a big proponent of central banks? Karl Marx. You don't even know the basis of your own ideologies.

P.S. That wasn't a personal attack, he pointed out your flawed arguments and lack of knowledge. Also I noticed you didn't even attempt to refute any evidence I brought forward in my first post. Are you afraid that I might actually know what I am talking about?