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ingrownpocket
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February 11, 2013, 02:38:43 PM
Last edit: November 19, 2014, 10:11:54 PM by Carlos L.
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DeathAndTaxes
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February 11, 2013, 02:50:33 PM
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I only looked at the first one but it is one giant "spammy" transaction (per low priority rules) which is 22KB and has a fee of 0.005 BTC.  The min mandatory fee for low priority transactions is 0.0005 BTC per kb.  For this tx that would require 0.011 BTC so the tx is non-compliant and many nodes will simply drop it.

Even with a 0.011 fee how long it takes to be confirmed depends on if a miner wants to include it in a block.  Most miners are just going to pass on including junk like this.  22KB with 600? outputs is enough to increase the risk of getting an orphan.   So say it increases propagation delay by 1%.   So I can collect get 25 BTC or include your tx and get 25.01 BTC but 1% of the time I lose the entire block.  In the long run I earn more by not including your tx.  If I were running a pool I wouldn't include it ... ever.
caveden
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February 11, 2013, 03:02:46 PM
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Even with a 0.011 fee how long it takes to be confirmed depends on if a miner wants to include it in a block.  Most miners are just going to pass on including junk like this.  22KB with 600? outputs is enough to increase the risk of getting an orphan.   So say it increases propagation delay by 1%.   So I can collect get 25 BTC or include your tx and get 25.01 BTC but 1% of the time I lose the entire block.  In the long run I earn more by not including your tx.  If I were running a pool I wouldn't include it ... ever.

They only have 1 input though. I thought many inputs was the biggest problem in what concerns verification time.
Actually, if this transaction was paying 0,011 in fees, wouldn't it be better to include it instead of 22 tx of 1kb paying 0,0005 each, in what concerns propagation time? Since the latter would have at least 22 different inputs to be validated.
EDIT: Dumb me, outputs have to be inserted in the transaction index, and that's likely to take more time than validating inputs. Ignore what I said above.
zvs
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February 11, 2013, 03:12:28 PM
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as i recall, the relay fee is 0.001 vs the creation fee of 0.005.  so it seems like your transaction would be relayed at least (if your node broadcasts it, some others should relay it).  it would be pushed down to the bottom of the list as more transactions are added


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February 11, 2013, 03:34:35 PM
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as i recall, the relay fee is 0.001 vs the creation fee of 0.005.  so it seems like your transaction would be relayed at least (if your node broadcasts it, some others should relay it).  it would be pushed down to the bottom of the list as more transactions are added

Good point forgot about the lower threshold for relay vs inclusion.
deepceleron
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February 12, 2013, 01:46:52 PM
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as i recall, the relay fee is 0.001 vs the creation fee of 0.005.  so it seems like your transaction would be relayed at least (if your node broadcasts it, some others should relay it).  it would be pushed down to the bottom of the list as more transactions are added
0.0001 per kB (not KiB) to relay x 22.530kB in size = minimum 0.0023 fee to relay (vs 0.0005 paid). Bitcoin requires the minimum fee if any output is less than 0.01 BTC, which many many are.
caveden
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February 12, 2013, 03:22:07 PM
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Any chance they will ever confirm/return?

Do you control any of the outputs?

I think that if you initiate a transaction from any of the outputs, and put a juicy fee on it, miners will combine the two when analyzing its fee/priority ratio. That might speed things up.
willnye
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February 13, 2013, 01:06:45 AM
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So if I have a transaction that relies on a transaction that relies on a transaction that relies on this guy: http://blockchain.info/tx/88eb395b48a6d3875d8d55a6efd34afd2e1d4e397b43f9f790479914fba0c74b, does that mean that I won't get any confirmations until this goes through (if ever)?

My transaction (http://blockchain.info/tx-index/52509782/9eb202978e1653a0d3b1c936c2a07228055ce434c6c065c727336cfc0a74d115) has been unconfirmed for like 8 hours now and I think I traced the backup to the OPs transaction by using bitcoincharts (http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/#9eb202978e1653a0d3b1c936c2a07228055ce434c6c065c727336cfc0a74d115). I guess there is no recourse right? I just hope I didn't just lose 13btc because of random chance. Anyone have any consoling words for me?
dree12
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February 13, 2013, 01:17:26 AM
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I only looked at the first one but it is one giant "spammy" transaction (per low priority rules) which is 22KB and has a fee of 0.005 BTC.  The min mandatory fee for low priority transactions is 0.0005 BTC per kb.  For this tx that would require 0.011 BTC so the tx is non-compliant and many nodes will simply drop it.

Even with a 0.011 fee how long it takes to be confirmed depends on if a miner wants to include it in a block.  Most miners are just going to pass on including junk like this.  22KB with 600? outputs is enough to increase the risk of getting an orphan.   So say it increases propagation delay by 1%.   So I can collect get 25 BTC or include your tx and get 25.01 BTC but 1% of the time I lose the entire block.  In the long run I earn more by not including your tx.  If I were running a pool I wouldn't include it ... ever.

Not really, since the propagation delay also increases the amount of time other miners work on an old block. I don't have a mathematical proof, but my gut feeling is that on average the size of the block simply does not matter.
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February 13, 2013, 01:18:41 AM
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I just hope I didn't just lose 13btc because of random chance. Anyone have any consoling words for me?

um, don't send 13BTC worth of goods/services until your incoming 13BTC confirms
DannyHamilton
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February 13, 2013, 02:08:06 AM
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. . . I just hope I didn't just lose 13btc because of random chance. Anyone have any consoling words for me?
This is one of the risks you take when accepting transactions with 0 confirmations. I suppose you can try and find someone else to accept the 13 BTC from you with 0 confirmations as well.  If the OP transaction ever confirms then all the other transactions confirm. If it gets reversed with a double-spend, then the whole chain collapses.

willnye
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February 13, 2013, 02:21:11 AM
 #12

I just hope I didn't just lose 13btc because of random chance. Anyone have any consoling words for me?

um, don't send 13BTC worth of goods/services until your incoming 13BTC confirms


This was a payment from coinbase to my wallet. I didn't do anything wrong (I don't think)
DannyHamilton
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February 13, 2013, 02:23:29 AM
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I just hope I didn't just lose 13btc because of random chance. Anyone have any consoling words for me?
um, don't send 13BTC worth of goods/services until your incoming 13BTC confirms
This was a payment from coinbase to my wallet. I didn't do anything wrong (I don't think)
In that case Coinbase screwed up. They shouldn't be accepting (and re-sending) transactions that haven't confirmed.  If it was me, I'd be contacting them and complaining.

willnye
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February 13, 2013, 03:02:03 AM
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I've emailed their support, gone through the support links on the website, and even tweeted at them. Nothing, no response. Experimenting with BTC has turned out to be a pretty expensive lesson!
DannyHamilton
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February 13, 2013, 04:16:11 AM
 #15

I've emailed their support, gone through the support links on the website, and even tweeted at them. Nothing, no response. Experimenting with BTC has turned out to be a pretty expensive lesson!
Let us know here if Coinbase resolves this issue for you.  They should not be sending out unconfirmed outputs, and I won't be recommending them to anyone until/unless they make good on this for you.

caveden
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February 13, 2013, 07:59:42 AM
 #16

My transaction (http://blockchain.info/tx-index/52509782/9eb202978e1653a0d3b1c936c2a07228055ce434c6c065c727336cfc0a74d115) has been unconfirmed for like 8 hours now and I think I traced the backup to the OPs transaction by using bitcoincharts (http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/#9eb202978e1653a0d3b1c936c2a07228055ce434c6c065c727336cfc0a74d115). I guess there is no recourse right? I just hope I didn't just lose 13btc because of random chance. Anyone have any consoling words for me?

As I said to OP, you may attempt to send the "locked money" to yourself, and pay a large transaction fee in the process. Theoretically the whole unconfirmed chain should be analyzed together by miners. (the fee would be used to pay for all of them).
I suppose something like 0,1 BTC as fee is already quite large.

But if you're not in a hurry, just wait.
caveden
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February 13, 2013, 08:06:25 AM
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Apparently it did. Smiley
DannyHamilton
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February 13, 2013, 08:55:02 AM
 #18

Nah, the other 2 transactions are still unconfirmed. He used the wrong output from the address.

cambda
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February 13, 2013, 10:35:30 AM
 #19

Dammit, this is causing me so much trouble... Lots of emails every day complaining.

What should I do?

Nah, the other 2 transactions are still unconfirmed. He used the wrong output from the address.
The change address does not count as output?


It would, but your change address 1969VR2qCchXMW94tpcYirbVLUfFw4Pw7b has many unspend inputs, you used input that is not output of any of the 2 transactions in original post. You have to use just the right input for it to even work. You have to use for example bitcoind sendrawtransaction after creating and signing it. Not a easy job for causal user. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions

Anyway this method like adding big tx fee to subsequent tx just to process previous tx with fee amount below the recommended one is most likely only theoretical, and not many miners/pools check for it as far as I know, but I may be wrong and things changes.

I would just wait, it eighter gets processed, or the tx will disappear. By the way these tx with less than recommended fees includes in the block only EclipseMC pool, and only when there are not enought of regular tx, so big thanks to them even adding these tx and supporting bitcoin microtransactions niche this way !

BTW your yesterday similar tx
http://blockchain.info/tx/4d2f20a628037a1723ad4e8d11b7333577c1382f5daf728d440ad5ef01795cd9

has been included by EclipseMC, so they didnt stop including those txs.
Jouke
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February 13, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
 #20

As I said to OP, you may attempt to send the "locked money" to yourself, and pay a large transaction fee in the process. Theoretically the whole unconfirmed chain should be analyzed together by miners. (the fee would be used to pay for all of them).

afaik no miner software has that implemented.

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