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Author Topic: How much does the german government know/monitor?  (Read 1265 times)
lebing
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February 11, 2013, 05:37:02 PM
 #1

Hallo Alles

Apologies for the english in the german forum, but I have just moved to germany and my german is pathetic at the moment. I am unsure about the legalities of bitcoin & asset transfer here and am looking for enlightenment from those in the know.

Specifically my questions are:

-- Does the german government automatically monitor/ account for wire transfers from foreign banks (ie bitstamp/mtgox, etc) to german accounts? If so, is there a threshold one has to meet in terms of euros or # of transfers before this occurs?

-- Do you have to disclose your bitcoin holdings to the government? If not, to what extent should one be worried about the government monitoring fiat that appears "out of thin air"?

Danke fur ihre hilfe

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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February 11, 2013, 06:12:26 PM
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Does the german government automatically monitor/ account for wire transfers from foreign banks (ie bitstamp/mtgox, etc) to german accounts?
No, the german government does not monitor, exept they have a person under investigation because of suspicion of crime.
There are laws against money laundering that make the banks report money transfers over certain limits to the customs or the tax offices.
The daily limit triggering a bank to report is 15000 EUR. Then the bank client has to declare.

For example cash money in your pockets at the airport has to be declared up from 10000 EUR.

Quote
Do you have to disclose your bitcoin holdings to the government? If not, to what extent should one be worried about the government monitoring fiat that appears "out of thin air"?
No, as of today. The bitcoin currency is not yet in perception by law and government.
So if over the limit of 15000 EUR in one sum to the recieving bank account, the receiver can declare to have a trade with one of the mentioned ecurrency trade markets, the sum as a result of a contract between the client and the trade market.

If the deals get too huge, you really better buy yourself an island in the caribbean for example.
lassdas
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February 11, 2013, 06:31:53 PM
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The daily limit triggering a bank to report is 15000 EUR. Then the bank client has to declare.
The limit for the AWV-Meldepflicht is 12 500 EUR, not 15 000.
BTCGOLD
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February 11, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
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Where do you live right now? I might be able to cash you out with cash money!;)

You should use bitcoin-24 to sell your coins. They transfer the money via bankwire from a european bank account, and they dont want 0,6% fees!

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brincobt
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February 11, 2013, 06:51:08 PM
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The limit for the AWV-Meldepflicht is 12 500 EUR, not 15 000.
Right, foreign economics trade = AWV, between foreigners and inlanders, says 12500 EUR.

Abgabenordnung AO concerns all money transfers, be it international or inside the country, it has the limit of 15000 EUR.

Luno
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February 11, 2013, 06:58:52 PM
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Germany have laws for barter currencies, they can in certain circumstances be considered a taxable valuable asset.

If you are mining and just selling your bitcoins, you have to pay VAT, or in German, steuer.

All this was discussed based on an answer to a German business from some Bundes tax office last fall.

I'm not German, so I didn't pay much attention, but you can ask this question in English in the german thread here on bitcointalk.

Germans are cool, You'll love staying there.
lebing
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February 11, 2013, 07:09:19 PM
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Where do you live right now? I might be able to cash you out with cash money!;)

You should use bitcoin-24 to sell your coins. They transfer the money via bankwire from a european bank account, and they dont want 0,6% fees!


Thanks - I'm actually not looking to sell now heh, just wondering what the landscape looks like in my new home =)

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
lebing
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February 11, 2013, 07:10:49 PM
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Quote
Does the german government automatically monitor/ account for wire transfers from foreign banks (ie bitstamp/mtgox, etc) to german accounts?
No, the german government does not monitor, exept they have a person under investigation because of suspicion of crime.
There are laws against money laundering that make the banks report money transfers over certain limits to the customs or the tax offices.
The daily limit triggering a bank to report is 15000 EUR. Then the bank client has to declare.

For example cash money in your pockets at the airport has to be declared up from 10000 EUR.

Quote
Do you have to disclose your bitcoin holdings to the government? If not, to what extent should one be worried about the government monitoring fiat that appears "out of thin air"?
No, as of today. The bitcoin currency is not yet in perception by law and government.
So if over the limit of 15000 EUR in one sum to the recieving bank account, the receiver can declare to have a trade with one of the mentioned ecurrency trade markets, the sum as a result of a contract between the client and the trade market.

If the deals get too huge, you really better buy yourself an island in the caribbean for example.

Great, thanks.

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
lebing
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February 11, 2013, 07:18:00 PM
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Germany have laws for barter currencies, they can in certain circumstances be considered a taxable valuable asset.

If you are mining and just selling your bitcoins, you have to pay VAT, or in German, steuer.

All this was discussed based on an answer to a German business from some Bundes tax office last fall.

I'm not German, so I didn't pay much attention, but you can ask this question in English in the german thread here on bitcointalk.

Germans are cool, You'll love staying there.

Yeah, germans are cool - I married one!

I actually dont mine, I just bought awhile back and now have this fantastic problem. I assume its probably taxed the same way as investments, but I wonder if that is like regular income here (if so, eep...).

Do you have a link to that thread by chance? I looked for it and only found threads with bundes in them that were in german.

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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February 15, 2013, 12:24:41 AM
 #10

Welcome to Germany!

Yes, if you have winnings by buying and selling BTC you would have to pay taxes on that. Since the German tax system is one of the most complicated in the world you have several options on how to pay these taxes. Either a fixed 25% of your winnings (pauschale Abgeltungssteuer) or added to your income and calculated with your personal tax rate.

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