How to buy large volumes of Bitcoins anonymously?

[dashteeb]

Are there ways for converting large chunks of $USD ($10,000?  $100,000) into Bitcoin anonymously?

There's always the in-person cash-exchange, but what about nice, convenient online options?  Does anybody know of any services that have attempted to offer anonymous online BTC buy-in and failed?

If anonymity is impossible because of tight USD regulation, is there some fancy work around possible, perhaps through exchanging USD for some obscure currency?  (e.g. How do the rich guys get their money out of the US?)

I don't think there are currently any solutions for safe, convenient (online), anonymous buy-in into the Bitcoin economy.  This would be huge, I think, for the Bitcoin economy.  How could it be done?  Anybody have any ideas?  Anybody know of any projects already working on this? 

I'm working from the assumption that it will only get harder to implement solutions for anonymous buy-in as governments try to react to Bitcoin undermining their controls on fiat currencies.  I'm guessing the best thing for Bitcoin is to grow fast and hard before government can react by inviting all that anonymous cash that's just waiting, desperate to pour in.  Of course, I could be wrong, and all that anonymous cash pouring in could only enable government to vilify Bitcoin in the public eye before the public has had sufficient time for the currency paradigm shift to marinate.   

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[Lethn]

Your assumption is pretty much correct about the USD I suspect even though the exchanges will be willing you'll probably have trouble moving around that much cash, if you have that much money to invest why not make a business that accepts Bitcoin? Or invest in business that use Bitcoin in payments for that matter. It doesn't even need to be anything particularly grand but this I think is what people will start doing now because mining just isn't going to cut it any more and you're frying perfectly good hardware doing it.

We really need a good decentralised stock exchange

[Stephen Gornick]

There's always the in-person cash-exchange, but what about nice, convenient online options?

Somehow the cash needs to transfer, and there are almost no "anonymous" methods for larger amounts.  For instance, BitInstant has limits of $500 USD per transactions and $2,000 USD per day.

There are a handful of bulk sellers (Tangible Cryptography and BitPay being two) but they require a bank transfer or other method in which wouldn't be considered "anonymous". 

Occasionally there are larger amounts of bitcoins being shopped OTC (over-the-counter), and usually indirectly by a party claiming to serve as the intermediary.  I've seen these communicated on the #bitcoin-otc channel, the #bitcoin-assets channel, on private Skype chat rooms, and through personal messages sent on the forum.   

Also, every merchant that accepts bitcoins is a potential source for coins.  For cash-flow purposes some of these merchants occasionally need a local buyer for large deals where a customer pays with bitcoins.   The merchant might not be selling the coins directly to the anonymous buyer but a broker acting as intermediary might.

Anybody know of any projects already working on this?

LocalBitcoins today has a fairly comprehensive directory of those who buy and/or sell bitcoins for cash.  Some of those listings show "max trade" amounts in the thousands of dollars range.  Even traders who don't directly offer larger amounts might know how to facilitate a larger trade (by partnering with other local traders, or by brokering a larger deal).

To-date, I don't really know how much interest there really is in acquiring large amounts of bitcoins anonymously.  I do believe there is a bigger (and growing) interest in finding ways to anonymously convert bitcoins already earned or otherwise acquired into other forms of value.

So I suspect anyone with cash will easily be able to find an anonymous trade, but the reverse -- someone with bitcoins will have a little bigger challenge in converting those coins anonymously to cash.      When there is the volume to support it, a service that maintains an order book for local traders will probably be needed such that less and less needs to travel through the exchanges.  Ripple could become a tool used here as well.

[frenchfries]

This is interesting. I am subscribing to this thread.

Basically, I have a whole bunch of Amazon GCs... an amount large enough that a lot of you will think I am full of shyte... and I want to acquire a bunch of BTC.

But I am a lurker and so I am new to these forums and this is making this plan difficult to execute.

Basically, I can either sell the gift cards individually. I could start with the smallest amounts first and require feedback from buying members to show that I am not a scammer (I already live VERY comfortably and the  thought of being thought of as a scammer or thief is simply not worth the few $$$s I would gain, furthermore I would gain more by selling the gift cards as I have a consistent supply of them, and finally, I've been around the block enough to know that the friendships and experience you develop and gain as you do things properly are worth more than any of the $$ or BTC you can make)

Or, I could apply them to my own Amazon account, and order products for you members. I would make this easy by providing a website where you can browse Amazon products and see their price in BitCoin. You can then initiate an order for the product, and I will place the order for you through my own Amazon account. I will allow returns and I have a rough idea of how to deal with them and what limits to impose to prevent abuse.
Using this service would not only allow you to use your BitCoin and buy actual stuff, you would also get a discount on that stuff... probably not much to start, a point or two, but I haven't penciled it out yet.

I saw a similar service around here.

I wonder what the demand is for this. Maybe I'm better off selling all of the cards to the above service so I dont have to deal with individual customers?

The reason why this is relevant to this thread is that I too am dealing with amounts too large for regular exchanger transactions, and that because my supply of Amazon gift cards looks like it is constant, and assuming I can sell all of them, I will end up with more BiCoin than I can spend. I wonder how that's dealt with, no offense for BitCoin, but I don't think I know enough about it to funds stored in this currency (and don't tell me "well, you have a bunch of amazon gift cards backed up by a private company, how safe is that" - i already know that )

[RodeoX]

It seems to me that buying large amounts would best be done in person and outside of the exchange system. Buying a usb stick with a wallet file is a little like buying a suitcase full of cash. You then have cash that can be spent, moved, or converted around the world. 

[frenchfries]

Yeah, in person still seems like the best way. I guess its just like cash if there was no such thing as personal ID cards/passports, and cash could be transferred to anywhere in the world instantly.

I want to acquire a bunch of BitCoin. I have $50,000 worth of Amazon gift cards to trade, and another $50,000 worth of Walmart cards to trade, and I would sell them all at once, but that's extremely risky, I think I would likely only do it in person, or sell them little by little.

[molecular]

Yeah, in person still seems like the best way. I guess its just like cash if there was no such thing as personal ID cards/passports, and cash could be transferred to anywhere in the world instantly.

I want to acquire a bunch of BitCoin. I have $50,000 worth of Amazon gift cards to trade, and another $50,000 worth of Walmart cards to trade, and I would sell them all at once, but that's extremely risky, I think I would likely only do it in person, or sell them little by little.

I would assume there are some old-timers sitting on large stashes who might want to sell a portion of their coins for cash without moving the market. Probably a good time to part one of them from some coins is when (if!) the current rally tops out or turns to a sideways action.

[vdragon]

Are there ways for converting large chunks of $USD ($10,000?  $100,000) into Bitcoin anonymously?

There's always the in-person cash-exchange, but what about nice, convenient online options?  Does anybody know of any services that have attempted to offer anonymous online BTC buy-in and failed?

If anonymity is impossible because of tight USD regulation, is there some fancy work around possible, perhaps through exchanging USD for some obscure currency?  (e.g. How do the rich guys get their money out of the US?)

I don't think there are currently any solutions for safe, convenient (online), anonymous buy-in into the Bitcoin economy.  This would be huge, I think, for the Bitcoin economy.  How could it be done?  Anybody have any ideas?  Anybody know of any projects already working on this? 

I'm working from the assumption that it will only get harder to implement solutions for anonymous buy-in as governments try to react to Bitcoin undermining their controls on fiat currencies.  I'm guessing the best thing for Bitcoin is to grow fast and hard before government can react by inviting all that anonymous cash that's just waiting, desperate to pour in.  Of course, I could be wrong, and all that anonymous cash pouring in could only enable government to vilify Bitcoin in the public eye before the public has had sufficient time for the currency paradigm shift to marinate.   

 I use visa gift cards. I but them on separate places, then look for local people that sell btc, and give them cards in exchange. One way to do it

[cavveman]

In theory you could buy ukash vouchers for your $ and after that buy BTC at mercabit.eu
That way you don't give out personal information.

[frenchfries]

I think the OP meant "how to buy large volumes AT A TIME"
Buying large amounts in smaller chunks is prohibitive due to costs (individual transaction costs + cost of time spent)(

[dashteeb]

Good thoughts, everybody.  Thanks.

I'm curious about exploiting current loopholes.  For example, what about setting up a Foundation?  I'm no asset protection expert, but my understanding is that the Foundations are fantastic little entities to shield assets.  What if there were a Foundation you could "donate" your cash to that had awesome humanitarian projects going on, and then they slipped you a few (thousand) Bitcoin under the table without anybody being officially the wiser?

Any asset protection experts out there getting sparks of ideas?

[frenchfries]

Yeah, in person still seems like the best way. I guess its just like cash if there was no such thing as personal ID cards/passports, and cash could be transferred to anywhere in the world instantly.

I want to acquire a bunch of BitCoin. I have $50,000 worth of Amazon gift cards to trade, and another $50,000 worth of Walmart cards to trade, and I would sell them all at once, but that's extremely risky, I think I would likely only do it in person, or sell them little by little.

I would assume there are some old-timers sitting on large stashes who might want to sell a portion of their coins for cash without moving the market. Probably a good time to part one of them from some coins is when (if!) the current rally tops out or turns to a sideways action.

You know, I've been sitting on these cards for a long time now, and I had plans to sell them before xmas, but a death in the family and the resulting nightmare from having to fly out and spend xmas in another country when all the airports were full, kind of screw up my plans.
I'm sure there are people who also think that the rally is about to end because the increase in value has been too great already, and who are looking to cash out. I haven't really looked, but I'm sure there are things you can buy on Amazon that are just as good as cash. I might just look into that, or does anyone have any idea of what someone can buy on Amazon for $55k+ that can be held on to, or resold, for the same value, locally? I have amazon prime, that will offset some of the shipping costs.... LOL  

[dashteeb]

LocalBitcoins.com, besides being a good solution for person-to-person exchanges, seems also like a good approach to solve the problem of the "fence" (an intermediary that both the buyer and seller feel they can trust, like an escrow service).

For example if frenchfries could find an intermediary (Ivan) that both he and a BTC seller (Sal) trusted, Sal could send the BTC to Ivan, Ivan would give frenchfries the go ahead to fedex the box of gift cards to Sal, frenchfries would supply proof of the insured shipment and tracking number to Ivan and Sal, and then Ivan would transfer the BTC to frenchfries. 

There are probably other regulatory issues (like maybe it being illegal/prohibited to fedex $100,000 worth of gift cards), but I like to think we can figure out a way around and through the issues.

[frenchfries]

Yeah, true. Except my gift cards are codes you redeem on your account
It's a lot more complex than that, really, because the buyer needs to load up the cards into an amazon account to make sure that they are good. Only then would the transaction be complete... unless the guy is willing to trust that my codes work, or he is willing to call Amazon and verify every single one of them (not my idea of a good time!)


I think I might just end up buying 50k worth of "something" on Amazon, that I can resell easily. Any ideas, anyone?

[frenchfries]

I have seen mentions of places that will give you BTC if you deposit cash into an account at Chase, BofA, etc.

Can someone recommend one that is proven to work? I'll bite the bullet and deposit $1000.00 today to give it a shot. I might need the BTC later as "guarantee" to be deposited with a high-postcount member to offer some kind of guarantee for the GC trade

[dashteeb]

the buyer needs to load up the cards into an amazon account to make sure that they are good. Only then would the transaction be complete

Sure.  That seems even easier than having to physically ship the cards. 

• seller sends BTC to intermediary
• intermediary gives you the go ahead to email GC codes to seller
• seller verifies GC codes to satisfaction
• intermediary sends you the BTC

Do you not think a trustworthy intermediary would be a viable solution?  Why not?  I admit it may be extremely difficult to find a trustworthy intermediary, but I think a service like LocalBitcoins.com could make that easier and easier.

[dashteeb]

I think I might just end up buying 50k worth of "something" on Amazon, that I can resell easily.

This works too.

[dashteeb]

Frenchfries, have you contacted any services like btcbuy.info that sell giftcards for BTC to see if they want to buy your giftcards at some reasonable discount?  Or you could set up your own similar business.

[molecular]

Yeah, true. Except my gift cards are codes you redeem on your account
It's a lot more complex than that, really, because the buyer needs to load up the cards into an amazon account to make sure that they are good. Only then would the transaction be complete... unless the guy is willing to trust that my codes work, or he is willing to call Amazon and verify every single one of them (not my idea of a good time!)


I think I might just end up buying 50k worth of "something" on Amazon, that I can resell easily. Any ideas, anyone?

Hadn't you talked about the idea of making a site with amazon products with bitcoin prices and order them for people?

I kinda like that idea. If you would be willing to give a discount ("amazon now cheaper in bitcoins") it could work well, I think... lots of work for you, though.

[Puppet]

Why not just sell the cards/codes on bitmit with escrow?