Pyramid smart contract?

[Novep]

I have came across these eth doubler which claim theirselves to be operating a pyramid smart contract in the alt section, aren't those basically ponzi? Or am I wrong?
So they are allowed to operate these pyramid schemes in the forum without being tagged with red feedbacks while the ones who post on the investor based games will be tagged in a matter of seconds?

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[Lauda]

I have came across these eth doubler which claim theirselves to be operating a pyramid smart contract in the alt section, aren't those basically ponzi? Or am I wrong?

How about you provide us with a link first before we make conclusions? It is most likely a ponzi, but I'd have to verify myself.

So they are allowed to operate these pyramid schemes in the forum without being tagged with red feedbacks while the ones who post on the investor based games will be tagged in a matter of seconds?

It could be because nobody cares about ETH.

[Novep]

I have came across these eth doubler which claim theirselves to be operating a pyramid smart contract in the alt section, aren't those basically ponzi? Or am I wrong?

How about you provide us with a link first before we make conclusions? It is most likely a ponzi, but I'd have to verify myself.

So they are allowed to operate these pyramid schemes in the forum without being tagged with red feedbacks while the ones who post on the investor based games will be tagged in a matter of seconds?

It could be because nobody cares about ETH.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1439712.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1437320.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1415365.0

[james.lent]

I have came across these eth doubler which claim theirselves to be operating a pyramid smart contract in the alt section, aren't those basically ponzi? Or am I wrong?

How about you provide us with a link first before we make conclusions? It is most likely a ponzi, but I'd have to verify myself.

So they are allowed to operate these pyramid schemes in the forum without being tagged with red feedbacks while the ones who post on the investor based games will be tagged in a matter of seconds?

It could be because nobody cares about ETH.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1439712.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1437320.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1415365.0

Yes they are all ponzis.

[tmfp]

This comes back to the definition of a Ponzi and the necessity for deception to be involved in order to define a scheme as such.
IF there is no deception, no claim that magic profits will be made, no claim that everyone wins, then where is the scam?
A game of "last in loses" with a clearly written contract which, if the claims for ETH smarts are correct, obviates the possibility of the organizer running off with the money, is what it says: just a game and, more importantly, everyone involved knows that.

[botany]

This comes back to the definition of a Ponzi and the necessity for deception to be involved in order to define a scheme as such.
IF there is no deception, no claim that magic profits will be made, no claim that everyone wins, then where is the scam?
A game of "last in loses" with a clearly written contract which, if the claims for ETH smarts are correct, obviates the possibility of the organizer running off with the money, is what it says: just a game and, more importantly, everyone involved knows that.

I agree. If the decision to stop and bolt is not with the operator of the scheme, but is written into the contract,  it can be considered as gambling.
People just take a chance when they decide to invest in it.

[Vod]

I have came across these eth doubler which claim theirselves to be operating a pyramid smart contract in the alt section, aren't those basically ponzi? Or am I wrong?

How about you provide us with a link first before we make conclusions? It is most likely a ponzi, but I'd have to verify myself.

So they are allowed to operate these pyramid schemes in the forum without being tagged with red feedbacks while the ones who post on the investor based games will be tagged in a matter of seconds?

It could be because nobody cares about ETH.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1439712.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1437320.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1415365.0

Yes they are all ponzis.

I have flagged them.  Thank you.

[Katatsuki]

Thanks for the bad feedback, asshat. My ponzis are fully transparent and don't pretend to be anything they aren't. No deception involved. In fact, the users are warned and encouraged to evaluate the risk and review the source code before participating.

I've put a lot of effort into exposing actual scams by people who release deceiving/broken contracts or who claim that "everyone wins", who abuse sockpuppeting, etc, while the moderators don't give a fuck. And now I get labeled as someone who can't be trusted; this community sure is a joke.

As people in this thread have pointed out, for it to be a scam there has to be deception involved. Otherwise it's just a game where you take a chance willingly.

[ravens]

Thanks for the bad feedback, asshat. My ponzis are fully transparent and don't pretend to be anything they aren't. No deception involved. In fact, the users are warned and encouraged to evaluate the risk and review the source code before participating.

I've put a lot of effort into exposing actual scams by people who release deceiving/broken contracts or who claim that "everyone wins", who abuse sockpuppeting, etc, while the moderators don't give a fuck. And now I get labeled as someone who can't be trusted; this community sure is a joke.

As people in this thread have pointed out, for it to be a scam there has to be deception involved. Otherwise it's just a game where you take a chance willingly.

Seriously? A ponzi takes the funds from new investors and gives part of them to the old ones, that's called stealing, which is also a crime. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+ponzi#

[tmfp]

....As people in this thread have pointed out, for it to be a scam there has to be deception involved. Otherwise it's just a game where you take a chance willingly.

Seriously? A ponzi takes the funds from new investors and gives part of them to the old ones, that's called stealing, which is also a crime. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+ponzi#

If you want to quote definitions, how about giving the full one, instead of cherrypicking to suit your POV?

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources.

Note the use of the word fraudulent.

fraudulent
obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception.

Deception is an integral part of the fraudulent behaviour involved in a Ponzi scheme.
Typically for example, this can be claiming to cloud mine and paying back small amounts to early investors from their own or later investments, until the admin have collected sufficient to run away with, and close down the scam.
 
A "last one in loses" game where there are willing participants, no deception involving lies about non existent business revenue and, because of smart contracts, no possibility of the admin having access to the funds and running away with them, is a completely different thing.

[ravens]

....As people in this thread have pointed out, for it to be a scam there has to be deception involved. Otherwise it's just a game where you take a chance willingly.

Seriously? A ponzi takes the funds from new investors and gives part of them to the old ones, that's called stealing, which is also a crime. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+ponzi#

If you want to quote definitions, how about giving the full one, instead of cherrypicking to suit your POV?

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources.

Note the use of the word fraudulent.

fraudulent
obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception.

Deception is an integral part of the fraudulent behaviour involved in a Ponzi scheme.
Typically for example, this can be claiming to cloud mine and paying back small amounts to early investors from their own or later investments, until the admin have collected sufficient to run away with, and close down the scam.
 
A "last one in loses" game where there are willing participants, no deception involving lies about non existent business revenue and, because of smart contracts, no possibility of the admin having access to the funds and running away with them, is a completely different thing.

Stealing is a crime, and that's what ponzis do(from new investors by definition), so therefore, no matter if it's transparent or not, ponzis are by definition a scam.

[Quickseller]

....As people in this thread have pointed out, for it to be a scam there has to be deception involved. Otherwise it's just a game where you take a chance willingly.

Seriously? A ponzi takes the funds from new investors and gives part of them to the old ones, that's called stealing, which is also a crime. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+ponzi#

If you want to quote definitions, how about giving the full one, instead of cherrypicking to suit your POV?

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources.

Note the use of the word fraudulent.

fraudulent
obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception.

Deception is an integral part of the fraudulent behaviour involved in a Ponzi scheme.
Typically for example, this can be claiming to cloud mine and paying back small amounts to early investors from their own or later investments, until the admin have collected sufficient to run away with, and close down the scam.
 
A "last one in loses" game where there are willing participants, no deception involving lies about non existent business revenue and, because of smart contracts, no possibility of the admin having access to the funds and running away with them, is a completely different thing.

Stealing is a crime, and that's what ponzis do(from new investors by definition), so therefore, no matter if it's transparent or not, ponzis are by definition a scam.

If you look at that guy's thread then you will see that he explains how his game works. It is my understanding that the smart contract feature of elethrum will prevent him from running away with players' money and will automatically send out returns once sufficient additional money has been received. It is not a guarantee that everyone will not lose money because the smart contract depends on additional money being received in order to pay out players.

It does belong in an investor-based-game-like section, however I would not call what he is doing theft nor a scam.

[Vod]

Thanks for the bad feedback, asshat. My ponzis are fully transparent and don't pretend to be anything they aren't. No deception involved. In fact, the users are warned and encouraged to evaluate the risk and review the source code before participating.

Ouch. 

My issue is that you don't state it's possible to LOSE your money.  That is the reason I left the trust - to warn the newbies that do not know what a ponzi is.  If you are willing to address it, my feedback is not permanent.

[ravens]

Can the owner change the contract? If so, what's stopping them from changing it? There's also the nature of ponzis to think about, which is theft from new investors to pay old ones.

[tmfp]

Can the owner change the contract? If so, what's stopping them from changing it?

Without in any way setting myself up as an expert on Etherium or smart contracts, the answer is basically no.

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/41597/ethereum-contract

There's also the nature of ponzis to think about, which is theft from new investors to pay old ones.

Yes, you keep repeating that.
I agree that it is confusing and unfortunate to try and float a legitimate game by using a label associated with fraud.
 
At the moment, most fair crypto gambling is just traditional fiat games like dice, poker adapted for the purpose.
Maybe, just maybe, by this smart contract approach a crypto specific game which is transparent and "fair" within its own context will be developed.
For a supposedly innovative environment people seem very resistant to and conservative about change.

And no, I don't support Ponzi Schemes, I spend a good deal of time calling them out.

[whywefight]

wasnt one of the "devs" of one of those "contracts" hacked a while ago and coins were stolen or lost?

You can call it smart contract or whatever, those things are ponzis.

[Quickseller]

wasnt one of the "devs" of one of those "contracts" hacked a while ago and coins were stolen or lost?

link?

[ravens]

Can the owner change the contract? If so, what's stopping them from changing it?

Without in any way setting myself up as an expert on Etherium or smart contracts, the answer is basically no.

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/41597/ethereum-contract

There's also the nature of ponzis to think about, which is theft from new investors to pay old ones.

Yes, you keep repeating that.
I agree that it is confusing and unfortunate to try and float a legitimate game by using a label associated with fraud.
 
At the moment, most fair crypto gambling is just traditional fiat games like dice, poker adapted for the purpose.
Maybe, just maybe, by this smart contract approach a crypto specific game which is transparent and "fair" within its own context will be developed.
For a supposedly innovative environment people seem very resistant to and conservative about change.

And no, I don't support Ponzi Schemes, I spend a good deal of time calling them out.

Here's the thing, even if there's a contract set up, the owner's admitted that they are operating a ponzi, meaning that they admit to stealing funds, there is absolutely no escape from that. Stealing funds from new investors to pay old ones with part of said funds is the "trademark" of a ponzi.

[botany]

wasnt one of the "devs" of one of those "contracts" hacked a while ago and coins were stolen or lost?
You can call it smart contract or whatever, those things are ponzis.

That is similar to a gambling casino owner claiming to have lost his funds. Doesn't mean that all gambling houses are frauds.
I haven't gone into the specifics of this one, but as long as there is no possibility of the operator stopping the scheme and making off with the funds at a given point, I would only call it a game/contract.
It is a game you are destined to lose if you play it for a long enough time, but that is also the case with gambling. The house edge makes the house win.

[tmfp]

Here's the thing, even if there's a contract set up, the owner's admitted that they are operating a ponzi, meaning that they admit to stealing funds, there is absolutely no escape from that. Stealing funds from new investors to pay old ones with part of said funds is the "trademark" of a ponzi.

wasnt one of the "devs" of one of those "contracts" hacked a while ago and coins were stolen or lost?

You can call it smart contract or whatever, those things are ponzis.

*smh*

Ok, I give up. So what shall we do with these witches, drown them or burn them?