Unlicensed Exchangers

[mayax]

Bitcoin is still not regulated as a currency so anyone could open a Bitcoin exchange if they wish and they can't be closed because they aren't doing anything illegal. If Bitcoin is to be regulated then all the exchanges that want to operate in a given country would need to obtain a license from the government.

that's good,anyone can build exchange,and nothing illegal or legal exchange,just like kraken or others,they invest in big investement,and its long term.
lets wait until bitcoin regulated by goverment,so legal exchange will appear.

Bitcoin cannot be regulated because there is no central power or it's not revealed at least and that's why only the exchange business IS regulated. The question is: why the exchangers do not respect the law and why do people use these services knowing there is a huge risk?

[BTC-Joe]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

Irrelevant for people who are smart enough to keep bitcoins in their own wallet, preferably offline like on a memory card. I only use an exchange when I want to sell BTC for currency. I do not regard them as a bank nor should anyone else. I don't even regard banks as banks.

It's up to the individual to make smart decisions about where to store their bitcoins...but in reality, you are not safer with your money in a bank account for the simple reason that all legitimate banks must and will comply with government/law enforcement...so things like asset seizure abuse are rampant all over America and even moreso in other countries.

[mayax]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

Irrelevant for people who are smart enough to keep bitcoins in their own wallet, preferably offline like on a memory card. I only use an exchange when I want to sell BTC for currency. I do not regard them as a bank nor should anyone else. I don't even regard banks as banks.

It's up to the individual to make smart decisions about where to store their bitcoins...but in reality, you are not safer with your money in a bank account for the simple reason that all legitimate banks must and will comply with government/law enforcement...so things like asset seizure abuse are rampant all over America and even moreso in other countries.

i don't live in USA

BTC won't have any success because the normal people are not and won't be tech savvy to use a memory card in order to keep the money on it...

Yes, if you think BTC is a very small niche which it is, then it's alright. It will be only used by computer geeks

If the exchangers won't be licensed, they will be closed and the owners will go to jail and the trust in BTC wil go away day by day.
The regulation as it is(good or bad) it brings trust. That's it.

[BTC-Joe]

Bitcoin cannot be regulated because there is no central power or it's not revealed at least and that's why only the exchange business IS regulated. The question is: why the exchangers do not respect the law and why do people use these services knowing there is a huge risk?

Why do you assume that all laws, especially those that deal with money, are fair and just? Are the laws passed for the public benefit, as they should be, or are they merely bits of cronyism that enable those who are wealthy to hold onto their wealth while those who are less fortunate have to slog through a jungle of red tape to elevate themselves financially?

The SEC, finra, central bank in the USA mainly exist to ensure that the financial sector exists, remains "too big to fail" and keeps capital out of the hands of most people. The passage of dodd-frank underscored how corrupt the entire financial system really is.

That law, in combination with the 3 rounds of QE and a ZIRP have inflated equities sky-high creating the false sense of economic progress where there has only been stagnation. Add to that the shady process of corporate stock buybacks and the table is set for something very unpleasant to happen in the near future.

Bitcoins are not a huge risk; you sell them when you need cash and that's it. Nobody can touch them as long as you keep them offline.

[mayax]

Bitcoin cannot be regulated because there is no central power or it's not revealed at least and that's why only the exchange business IS regulated. The question is: why the exchangers do not respect the law and why do people use these services knowing there is a huge risk?

Why do you assume that all laws, especially those that deal with money, are fair and just? Are the laws passed for the public benefit, as they should be, or are they merely bits of cronyism that enable those who are wealthy to hold onto their wealth while those who are less fortunate have to slog through a jungle of red tape to elevate themselves financially?

The SEC, finra, central bank in the USA mainly exist to ensure that the financial sector exists, remains "too big to fail" and keeps capital out of the hands of most people. The passage of dodd-frank underscored how corrupt the entire financial system really is.

That law, in combination with the 3 rounds of QE and a ZIRP have inflated equities sky-high creating the false sense of economic progress where there has only been stagnation. Add to that the shady process of corporate stock buybacks and the table is set for something very unpleasant to happen in the near future.

Bitcoins are not a huge risk; you sell them when you need cash and that's it. Nobody can touch them as long as you keep them offline.

yes, bitcoin is a risk for the average people who can be hacked very, very easily. Even you are not a computer noob, you can be hacked. See 1000's exchangers who were hacked. Almost all of them

so, BTC is a risk as any other anonymous e-currency.

[BTC-Joe]

i don't live in USA

BTC won't have any success because the normal people are and won't be tech savvy to use a memory card in order to keep the money on it...

Yes, if you think BTC is a very small niche which it is, then it's alright. It will be only used by computer geeks

If the exchangers won't be licesed, they will be closed and the owners will go to jail and the trust in BTC wil go away day by day.
The regulation as it is(good or bad) it brings trust. That's it.

A lot of things come and go. Right now there is a situation where you obtain BTC in some way and sell it for USD or another currency. It doesn't need to last forever, or even for a few decades. You have opportunities coming and going all the time.

Regulation does not bring trust; regulation creates barriers and impedes natural improvement, stifles competition and does not help anything. You place "trust" in regulations created at the behest of politicians that lied, cheated and stole to get elected...you haven't given this much thought, have you?

Show me one example where a previously unregulated opportunity got better after government regulation was introduced.

[mayax]

an unregulated financial industry will bring chaos but for you it's OK because you are a...libertarian?

ok, you don't like the rules, the laws and so on...it's alright. go and live on your own without phone, bank account, TV, internet because the "govs" are everywhere.

you were born in a world with rules, a doctor help you to come in this world and that doctor was paid with legal tender(money) not with ..BTC.

it's a useless discussion. the point is that all the unlicensed exchangers must be avoided if you care about your money.

[BTC-Joe]

yes, bitcoin is a risk for the average people who can be hacked very, very easily. Even you are not a computer noob, you can be hacked. See 1000's exchangers who were hacked. Almost all of them

so, BTC is a risk as any other anonymous e-currency.

And how will "regulation" change this? Credit cards are heavily regulated; credit card fraud never happen, right? Oh, wait, it happens all the time.

There are stiff penalties for committing identity theft. Good thing those laws and regulations exist to prevent it...oh...wait...there is a thriving black market where stolen identities are bought and sold daily, and it's growing not shrinking.

What's you're point? If you are not careful, someone can steal your bitcoins just like the same thing could happen with anything else. You're trying to suggest that bitcoins should be regulated, as if doing so would have any effect? It wouldn't.

[mayax]

yes, bitcoin is a risk for the average people who can be hacked very, very easily. Even you are not a computer noob, you can be hacked. See 1000's exchangers who were hacked. Almost all of them

so, BTC is a risk as any other anonymous e-currency.

And how will "regulation" change this? Credit cards are heavily regulated; credit card fraud never happen, right? Oh, wait, it happens all the time.

There are stiff penalties for committing identity theft. Good thing those laws and regulations exist to prevent it...oh...wait...there is a thriving black market where stolen identities are bought and sold daily, and it's growing not shrinking.

What's you're point? If you are not careful, someone can steal your bitcoins just like the same thing could happen with anything else. You're trying to suggest that bitcoins should be regulated, as if doing so would have any effect? It wouldn't.

Yes, credit card/debit cards frauds are often BUT you get the funds back. ALL of them! Get the funds back after your BTC account is hacked. Tell that to all the people who lost fortunes because they didn't "take care".
You can be hacked with all the anti malware, antivirus from this planet.

I suggest that all the exchangers MUST get a financial license because these are the laws and because it's for the clients protection to use a regulated financial company.  If you run a forex company, you are forced to pay a lot of money, to pay taxes, salaries, etc. If you run a normal financial company, you have to do the same.  Other are "stupids" because they comply, the BTC exchangers are smart guys, right?

A lot of exchangers ran overnight. You cannot do that if you are regulated or you can but MUCH, MUCH harder and you can easily go to jail....because the everybody knows who you are.

[BTC-Joe]

an unregulated financial industry will bring chaos but for you it's OK because you are a...libertarian?

ok, you don't like the rules, the laws and so on...it's alright. go and live on your own without phone, bank account, TV, internet because the "govs" are everywhere.

Without regulation there won't be a "financial industry" and that is precisely the idea. The existence of a financial industry is a parasite to all the people from whom it leeches from to sustain itself.

Sure, governments are "everywhere" which is exactly why big, bloated government bureaucracies are the problem not the solution.

Give us some specific examples of this "chaos". Go ahead and explain why we need more regulations on top of common-sense laws that make fraud and theft crimes. Why should there be a regulation that says if I want to sell notes, I can only sell them to "accredited investors" (according to SEC regulation) or else I would need to register the notes with the SEC and spend $20K or more on legal fees to be "compliant".

Those regulations are not helping anyone other than the financial industry, which shouldn't even exist in the first place.

[mayax]

an unregulated financial industry will bring chaos but for you it's OK because you are a...libertarian?

ok, you don't like the rules, the laws and so on...it's alright. go and live on your own without phone, bank account, TV, internet because the "govs" are everywhere.

Without regulation there won't be a "financial industry" and that is precisely the idea. The existence of a financial industry is a parasite to all the people from whom it leeches from to sustain itself.

Sure, governments are "everywhere" which is exactly why big, bloated government bureaucracies are the problem not the solution.

Give us some specific examples of this "chaos". Go ahead and explain why we need more regulations on top of common-sense laws that make fraud and theft crimes. Why should there be a regulation that says if I want to sell notes, I can only sell them to "accredited investors" (according to SEC regulation) or else I would need to register the notes with the SEC and spend $20K or more on legal fees to be "compliant".

Those regulations are not helping anyone other than the financial industry, which shouldn't even exist in the first place.

ok. you are a "dreamer". I won't argue with you anymore. The people are using BTC for PURE profit, to take advantage, to speculate and not for dreaming

you are talking about other "World"...

[BTC-Joe]

Yes, credit card/debit cards frauds are often BUT you get the funds back. ALL of them! Get the funds back after your BTC account is hacked. Tell that to all the people who lost fortunes because they didn't "take care".
You can be hacked with all the anti malware, antivirus from this planet.

I suggest that all the exchangers MUST get a financial license because these are the laws and because it's for the clients protection to use a regulated financial company.

Not true. Victims of identity theft and even some credit card fraud do lose the money, and if their accounts are emptied out via wire transfers or something of that sort, you'll probably have to involve a lawyer to assist you in dealing with the bank if you hope to recover any of it...but the legal fees will often be more than what was lost when all was said and done.

It's not that hard to keep a bitcoin wallet on a memory card...and no, we are not introducing regulations as a "nanny" to those who are too ignorant or careless to protect themselves. It's not OUR responsibility to protect YOUR BTC wallet, comrade. Go back to the polit bureau and tell them nyet.

[BTC-Joe]

ok. you are a "dreamer". I won't argue with you anymore. The people are using BTC for PURE profit, to take advantage, to speculate and not for dreaming

you are talking about other "World"...

This doesn't even make any sense. Speculating and profiting are not crimes or forms of fraud. They are legitimate activities, and even though I personally dislike speculators, I would not advocate for any law or regulation to make what they do illegal so long as the playing field is level.

In the US stock market, "professional" speculators have an unfair advantage over retail speculators due to execution time and discrepancies in market maker prices. This is how HFT traders rip off the market...but what they're doing isn't speculation so much as it is sniping transactions in a way that not all traders can do.

[worhiper_-_]

OP here is using the term unlicensed liberally. The article describes a very small scale operation that was completely unregistered while most exchanges in mentioned in the OP are registered as companies.

[mayax]

OP here is using the term unlicensed liberally. The article describes a very small scale operation that was completely unregistered while most exchanges in mentioned in the OP are registered as companies.

I am talking about financial license which is mandatory for each BTC exchanger. It doesn't matter where their company is registered/located.  All the countries have laws who require a "supervision" of this activity when it's about of receiving funds from sending funds to clients.

 A company is relative simple to register. It's not about that

[bittrojan]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

and just bitstamp who has licensed in luxombourg. but i think people dont care with unlicensed exchange,they just use exchange for trade,and not keep their asset on there.

[mayax]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

and just bitstamp who has licensed in luxombourg. but i think people dont care with unlicensed exchange,they just use exchange for trade,and not keep their asset on there.

Bitstamp took the cheapest license and this allows them only to deal in....Luxombourg. This license cannot be passported to other EU states. . It's a dust in the eyes for people BUT Bistamp is regulated now. They will pay taxes, they will report the transactions, they will comply with many other rules(at least on paper)

According to the share market, BTC-e is much bigger than Bitstamp but not nobody knows who they really are.

https://bitcoinity.org/markets/list

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

[Wendigo]

Mate when I read the news yesterday it was said that this license from Luxembourg will include all the member states of the European Union so that makes it eligible in 28 countries. Here is a link to a Forbes article that confirms it again: http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2016/04/25/7886/#2a2f7776518d
Why do you think Bitstamp license can't be 'passported' to other countries? Are you from Europe mayax?

[katiecbell]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

XAPO also in the list 

I thought XAPO was trusted wallet ?
Please advice

[mayax]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

XAPO also in the list  

I thought XAPO was trusted wallet ?
Please advice

there are only 4 licensed exchangers in USA. USA is well known as a country who enforce the financial laws pretty well.

Licensed exchangers in USA : Coinbase, Circle, Itbit(for New York only) and Gemini(NY only) . The rest of the US exchangers are OUTLAW (XAPO  is one of them) and they can be shut down anytime as it already happened to many...

Xapo is not only a...wallet. You can buy BTC from them, they have debit cards as well. That means it is required a money transmitter license.

Example: http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-firm-xapo-cuts-north-carolina-access

Also, Xapo is lying like a shit "Xapo has officially relocated its corporate headquarters to Zurich, Switzerland," (May 2015)  while on their website is saying:

"HEADQUARTERS: Xapo is incorporated in Hong Kong , has an office in Palo Alto, California and operates Worldwide" and MORE in their TERMS "https://xapo.com/terms/" :

"If you are using our Services in the United States, you are engaging not with Xapo Limited but with Xapo, Inc., a Delaware corporation"   

However, they are not licensed ANYWHERE.