Unlicensed Exchangers

[mayax]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

[1714499230]

1714499230

[1714499230]

1714499230

[Amph]

closed by who? if it's not by their local jurisdiction, they cannot be closed by america if you think so, they are out of the law of america

[mayax]

closed by who? if it's not by their local jurisdiction, they cannot be closed america if you think so, they are out of the law of america

All the countries have laws regarding to financial transactions and they require a financial license for the Bitcoin exchangers. It doesn't matter if you are in USA or China.

[Lauda]

All the countries have laws regarding to financial transactions and they require a financial license for the Bitcoin exchangers. It doesn't matter if you are in USA or China.

If Bitcoin isn't defined as money in their country, exactly why would they need such a license? Bitcoin is still in the 'grey zone' for a lot of places.

[PangLima Coin]

closed by who? if it's not by their local jurisdiction, they cannot be closed america if you think so, they are out of the law of america

All the countries have laws regarding to financial transactions and they require a financial license for the Bitcoin exchangers. It doesn't matter if you are in USA or China.

how about coin?does the coin must have license too or it will be closed ,.lol

[mayax]

All the countries have laws regarding to financial transactions and they require a financial license for the Bitcoin exchangers. It doesn't matter if you are in USA or China.

If Bitcoin isn't defined as money in their country, exactly why would they need such a license? Bitcoin is still in the 'grey zone' for a lot of places.

it's not about Bitcoin. It's about that an exchanger is doing financial transactions. They are receiving money from customers for doing a FINANCIAL service. You need license  for a such thing in all the countries. There is NO grey zone.

Example: you need a financial license to trade gold even it's virtual gold. Gold is not money...

"In their country" where? Kraken is based in USA and USA requests license. Okcoin, BTC China are based in Singapore and China which are requesting financial licenses for that, Bitfinex is based in Hong Kong and they claim to be registered in  British Virgin Islands which requires a financial license for these kind of services....

[AgentofCoin]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

First of all, the article is about two individuals who are light weights ($10k in undeclared cash over 3 years).

These two people most likely used something like Localbitcoins to facilitate their trades,
and if that is true, then this story is not comparable to the above listed "unlicensed exchangers"
who are doing $100k+ in transactions/profits/fees per day within their own dedicated site.

Second, the term "unlicensed exchange" only applies in jurisdictions in which there are regulations.
Those jurisdictions are actually very few and being licensed or not does not assure your bitcoins are safe.

Third, Mayax is a known supporter of world regulation over bitcoin and constantly argues for principals that are anti-bitcoin.

[mayax]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

First of all, the article is about two individuals who are light weights ($10k in undeclared cash over 3 years).

These two people most likely used something like Localbitcoins to facilitate their trades,
and if that is true, then this story is not comparable to the above listed "unlicensed exchangers"
who are doing $100k+ in transactions/profits/fees per day within their own dedicated site.

Second, the term "unlicensed exchange" only applies in jurisdictions in which there are regulations.
Those jurisdictions are actually very few and being licensed or not does not assure your bitcoins are safe.

Third, Mayax is a known supporter of world regulation over bitcoin and constantly argues for principals that are anti-bitcoin.

Let's see :

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/coin-mx-bitcoin-exchange-operators-arrested/
http://www.wired.com/2015/01/bitcoin-exchange-operator-sentenced-4-years-silk-road-transactions

These are not from Localbitcoins.

"unlicensed exchange" only applies in jurisdictions in which there are regulations. CORRECT. All the countries have regulations regarding to that. It doesn't have to be something special for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is considered a virtual currency/e-currency and there are strict laws toward to this. Why do you think Circle got license in EU after USA ? Do you think they don't care about the money they spent for that? I assure you it was 500-700K Euros.   Good pocket money, right? But they spent it for a...license. Why?

USA, UE(and not only), China/HK, Australia, Canada, etc. All have laws for e-currency exchangers (even BVI, Belize, Bahamas).

[AgentofCoin]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

First of all, the article is about two individuals who are light weights ($10k in undeclared cash over 3 years).

These two people most likely used something like Localbitcoins to facilitate their trades,
and if that is true, then this story is not comparable to the above listed "unlicensed exchangers"
who are doing $100k+ in transactions/profits/fees per day within their own dedicated site.

Second, the term "unlicensed exchange" only applies in jurisdictions in which there are regulations.
Those jurisdictions are actually very few and being licensed or not does not assure your bitcoins are safe.

Third, Mayax is a known supporter of world regulation over bitcoin and constantly argues for principals that are anti-bitcoin.

Let's see :

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/coin-mx-bitcoin-exchange-operators-arrested/
http://www.wired.com/2015/01/bitcoin-exchange-operator-sentenced-4-years-silk-road-transactions

These are not from Localbitcoins.

"unlicensed exchange" only applies in jurisdictions in which there are regulations. CORRECT. All the countries have regulations regarding to that. It doesn't have to be something special for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is considered a virtual currency/e-currency and there are strict laws toward to this.
USA, UE(and not only), China, Australia, Canada, etc. All have laws for e-currency exchangers.

Both links you provided do not argue what was your original argument.
Both of those links include willful conspiracy to syndicate criminal activity or willful conspiracy toward drug/weapon sales.
This is like apples to oranges. Because an exchange is licensed or not, does not prevent this from happening.


Please provide links to all laws and regulations that you are relying upon for each country you have listed.

Are you aware that in the United States, it is each state's right to self define money transmission,
and as such, some of those States have determined that bitcoin is not money?

[mayax]

Each is facing up to ten years in prison if convicted, on a single charge of operating an unlicensed money transfer business and conspiracy thereof (two separate charges).

It's about drugs too BUT there were charged for  unlicensed money transfer business and conspiracy also.

Bitcoin is NOT money but it's e-currency and there is a law in USA regarding to that. I recommend you to read about that with patience

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/fincen-clarifies-virtual-currency-payment-systems-trading-platforms-money-transmitters/


https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/rulings/pdf/FIN-2015-R001.pdf

http://www.dfi.wa.gov/bitcoin

[franky1]

All the countries have laws regarding to financial transactions and they require a financial license for the Bitcoin exchangers. It doesn't matter if you are in USA or China.

If Bitcoin isn't defined as money in their country, exactly why would they need such a license? Bitcoin is still in the 'grey zone' for a lot of places.

sometimes i think lauda needs to step outside of the box and see the whole ecosystem.

if they are touching FIAT.. like doing bank deposits. then they need licences of the type of currency they are accepting.

EG
if it were the american dollar.. then they need american licence.
if its were a euro then they need a european licence

if however they are just swapping bitcoin for altcoins(no fiat at all). then and only then do they not need a licence.

[AgentofCoin]

Each is facing up to ten years in prison if convicted, on a single charge of operating an unlicensed money transfer business and conspiracy thereof (two separate charges).

It's about drugs too BUT there were charged for  unlicensed money transfer business and conspiracy also.

Bitcoin is NOT money but it's e-currency and there is a law in USA regarding to that. I recommend you to read about that with patience

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/fincen-clarifies-virtual-currency-payment-systems-trading-platforms-money-transmitters/


https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/rulings/pdf/FIN-2015-R001.pdf

http://www.dfi.wa.gov/bitcoin

The first link does not provide law or regulations. In fact, they are requesting
interpretation of laws. That doesn't mean anything until a finding and entering of law.

The second link does not provide laws or regulation to bitcoin. In fact,
it is about brokerages that sell precious metals for any funds.

The third link only applies to Washington state. As I said, each state may
define money transmission any way they wish. It is interesting to note that there
are no laws that actually define money to include bitcoin within these pages. The state
has rolled bitcoin into the current law, even though the definition is well defined and
only include government approved currency.

This Interim Guidance does not amend chapter 19.230 RCW or chapter 208
-690 WAC.  This Interim Guidance is subject to change or withdrawal.

So simply, they got lazy and instead of adding to the law by ratification,
they re-interpreted the law to go around legislation.
This is not final law and can be overturned.

The links provided does not prove that bitcoin laws are fully defined world wide and
whether people or exchanges are in compliance or are not in compliance.

[snoovering]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

First of all, the article is about two individuals who are light weights ($10k in undeclared cash over 3 years).
...

Hope you didn't get your $10k from "Further, the Lords allegedly failed to report cash receipts in excess of $10,000."
Over 10k simply means that they failed to report transactions over $10k, a failure to comply with AML reporting regulations. On top of running an exchange & pushing Xanax like a bunch of high school kids.

[mayax]

the guidance is for the LAW in cause to understand it better : https://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

[AgentofCoin]

Why do the people still use unlicensed exchangers like Kraken, Xapo, BTC-e, Okcoin, BTC China, Bitfinex and many others? All of them are out law and they can be closed anytime and your money lost...

This is only the most recent example but there are so many like: http://www.coindesk.com/men-plead-guilty-running-unlicensed-bitcoin-exchange/

First of all, the article is about two individuals who are light weights ($10k in undeclared cash over 3 years).
...

Hope you didn't get your $10k from "Further, the Lords allegedly failed to report cash receipts in excess of $10,000."
Over 10k simply means that they failed to report transactions over $10k, a failure to comply with AML reporting regulations. On top of running an exchange & pushing Xanax like a bunch of high school kids.

If you accept cash in person, AML in does not apply. AML has to do with bank deposits with a single purchase.

[franky1]

If you accept cash in person, AML in does not apply. AML has to do with bank deposits with a single purchase.

its a little more complicated then that.

try having more then$10k in a suitcase when you go to an airport or at a border check.

but the whole bank deposit thing is mainly due to the ease of noticing and finding people doing it. not so much a difference of the law. just the survellance capabilities

in short if ur accepting and giving out large amounts of FIAT as part of a business that swaps fiat for other things. then expect to have to explain yourself
it does not matter if its for legit purposes or not. it does not matter if its a bankers cheque or a bank note or a wire transfer the law is the same.

the only difference is the level of surveillance needed to find out who moved what to where, and for what reason.

so if you dont want the headaches, dont touch fiat.

[Amph]

closed by who? if it's not by their local jurisdiction, they cannot be closed america if you think so, they are out of the law of america

All the countries have laws regarding to financial transactions and they require a financial license for the Bitcoin exchangers. It doesn't matter if you are in USA or China.

this may be not true for crypto currency and probably it's not true by an amount limit, maybe those exchange are moving a low amount of money and they are not require any licence?

also are you sure that in all countries you need a licence for money trasmitting?

[AgentofCoin]

the guidance is for the LAW in cause to understand it better : https://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

Please see footnote 1 of the bottom of your link page:

1 FinCEN is issuing this guidance under its authority to administer the Bank Secrecy Act. See Treasury Order 180-01 (March 24, 2003). This guidance explains only how FinCEN characterizes certain activities involving virtual currencies under the Bank Secrecy Act and FinCEN regulations. It should not be interpreted as a statement by FinCEN about the extent to which those activities comport with other federal or state statutes, rules, regulations, or orders. (Emphasis Added)

And see:

12As our response is not in the form of an administrative ruling, the substance of this letter should not be considered determinative in any state or federal investigation, litigation, grand jury proceeding, or proceeding before any other governmental body.

So, currently, this is not laws. In fact, they say it is not law and is a reinterpretation of the known laws,
in order to place crypt-currencies within their governance (without legislative approval).

In theory, FinCENs "guidance" can not be used as anything official or definitive in a court of law or before congress.

[Lauda]

it's not about Bitcoin. It's about that an exchanger is doing financial transactions. They are receiving money from customers for doing a FINANCIAL service. You need license  for a such thing in all the countries. There is NO grey zone.

I don't think these things work the way you think in a lot of places. For example, for withdrawing money in a country where Bitcoin is in the grey area I don't have to pay any kind of tax.

Example: you need a financial license to trade gold even it's virtual gold. Gold is not money...

I need to have a license to trade my FarmVille coins?  

[mayax]

If you accept cash in person, AML in does not apply. AML has to do with bank deposits with a single purchase.

its a little more complicated then that.

try having more then$10k in a suitcase when you go to an airport or at a border check.

but the whole bank deposit thing is mainly due to the ease of noticing and finding people doing it. not so much a difference of the law. just the survellance capabilities

in short if ur accepting and giving out FIAT as part of a business that swaps fiat for other things. then expect to have to explain yourself
it does not matter if its for legit purposes or not. it does not matter if its a bankers cheque or a bank note or a wire transfer the law is the same.

the only difference is the level of surveillance needed to find out who moved what to where, and for what reason.

so if you dont want the headaches, dont touch fiat.

good point and true.

if the exchangers will not touch fiat then they will have almost no business.   the point is that they do not want to play "fair" and to get the financial license required by the country where they are registered.

once licensed, they have to respect strict rules, they cannot disappear overnight. it's so funny. they want to be treated like serious businesses, like shit corporations but when it's about regulations, they run