The impact of bad crypto (DASH, SDC, etc). How much does math matter?

[qwizzie]

The impact of bad threads like these in a desperate attempt to profile their own crypto (Monero). How much will it matter ?

None. The market will judge and value a cryptocurrency's progress individually and objectively.
Which is why Dash is ranked firmly at 5th rank for a long time now and other cryptocurrencies (like Monero) rise and fall on ranks
(also known as pump and dump schemes).  

[generalizethis]

Now that you quoted the entire post, does it change the fact that he says BITCOIN IS A BROKEN DESIGN?

FTFY

Now apologize for misreading and misquoting what was pretty obvious for anyone with high school reading skills.

Yeah because if he considers bitcoin as "broken" due to its scaling which is 10 times better than monero, then monero ...isn't broken

Dat logic.

And he also asserted time and time again (even two posts above) that the anonymity is broken against the state due to metadata correlation.

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin.

#badycrypto XMR  

Sigh, he also said dash is the worst of the three, so if you're going to use him as an authority figure, you have to accept that analysis. The enemy of my enemy is my friend until they become friends with my enemy because they just don't like you very much.

Smooth has pointed out that metadata isn't the problem that Monero was designed to solve and it's still up for I2p and TOR and other anonymous networks to prevent metadata collection. Dash doesn't even solve the problem that Monero solves and dash even finds ways to create new problems, like having an instamine and node incentives aggregate power into the form of an oligarchy.

[smooth]

Smooth has pointed out that metadata isn't the problem that Monero was designed to solve

That is true, the problem is largely independent. If your network traffic is being spied up, then you will have the same or worse (probably much worse) problems with Bitcoin or Dash or any other coin.

Also, no one involved with Monero has ever claimed it is 'NSA-proof'. The most we have ever said is that it continues to improve and could possibly, someday, reach a point of being reasonably NSA-proof if coupled with good OPSEC (as something like PGP might be considered today), but that is certainly not a realistic short term goal.

Yeah because if he considers bitcoin as "broken" due to its scaling which is 10 times better than monero, then monero ...isn't broken

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous. There isn't any clear metric by which one would define a numeric comparison "scaling". In some ways Monero scales better than Bitcoin, in other ways worse. In some of the most important ways (such as bandwidth required for full nodes), they are very close. Bitcoin might have a small edge if you ignore additional Bitcoin traffic created by JoinMarket and other forms of mixing in order to try to do (worse) what Monero does natively.

Anyway, scaling has little if anything to do with what experts call "bad crypto". In fact, making crypto worse and using smaller key sizes, etc. could help with scaling.

[AlexGR]

Monero is not anonymous when your metadata can be correlated. One example of metadata which unmasks your anonymity is your IP address. And no, Tor and I2P mixnets do not hide your IP address from the government, in fact they are thought to be Sybil attacked honeypots that not only tell the government your IP address but also alert the NSA et al that you should come under extra scrutiny.

...

Additionally I have been making the point since the BCX incident that ring signatures can theoretically be unmasked by combinatorial analysis of the block chain. In the recent debate I had with Monero's cryptographer Shen-noether at Reddit about his white papers, I pointed out that his proposed solution to combinatorial unmasking was flawed. He and smooth did the usual ad hominem attack on my person, and then I rebutted them with logical facts and they were forced to finally put their tail between their legs.

Bullshit. So much bullshit in these discussions of cryptocurrency technology. Especially coming from all the Monero pumpers who haven't done their homework, because they are retarded, closed-minded, and boastfully so.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1183043.msg13850005;topicseen#msg13850005
...
Thus the abstract BGP analysis does apply to the conclusion that Monero (and Ethereum) have deluded themselves into thinking they can avoid centralization and instead gets centralization in a way they did not want.

...

Thus I have explained there is no Nash equilibrium in Monero's penalty feature (unlike for Satoshi's longest chain rule where there is indeed a Nash equilibrium because if miners don't converge on the longest chain then all their chains are invalid/orphans and worthless without consensus).

...

Monero Review:

Broken anonymity [✓]
Broken scaling [✓]
Broken game theory / Broken Nash Equilibrium [✓]
Delusional, retarded and pumper-minded community [✓]
Cryptographers with broken cryptographic ideas [✓]
Broken de-centralization that will tend to centralization [✓]

Congratulations. You passed your "broken crypto" review with flying colors.

Monero #REKT  

[AlexGR]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

[smooth]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

[generalizethis]

Monero is not anonymous when your metadata can be correlated. One example of metadata which unmasks your anonymity is your IP address. And no, Tor and I2P mixnets do not hide your IP address from the government, in fact they are thought to be Sybil attacked honeypots that not only tell the government your IP address but also alert the NSA et al that you should come under extra scrutiny.

...

Additionally I have been making the point since the BCX incident that ring signatures can theoretically be unmasked by combinatorial analysis of the block chain. In the recent debate I had with Monero's cryptographer Shen-noether at Reddit about his white papers, I pointed out that his proposed solution to combinatorial unmasking was flawed. He and smooth did the usual ad hominem attack on my person, and then I rebutted them with logical facts and they were forced to finally put their tail between their legs.

Bullshit. So much bullshit in these discussions of cryptocurrency technology. Especially coming from all the Monero pumpers who haven't done their homework, because they are retarded, closed-minded, and boastfully so.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1183043.msg13850005;topicseen#msg13850005
...
Thus the abstract BGP analysis does apply to the conclusion that Monero (and Ethereum) have deluded themselves into thinking they can avoid centralization and instead gets centralization in a way they did not want.

...

Thus I have explained there is no Nash equilibrium in Monero's penalty feature (unlike for Satoshi's longest chain rule where there is indeed a Nash equilibrium because if miners don't converge on the longest chain then all their chains are invalid/orphans and worthless without consensus).

...

Monero Review:

Broken anonymity [✓]
Broken scaling [✓]
Broken game theory / Broken Nash Equilibrium [✓]
Delusional, retarded and pumper-minded community [✓]
Cryptographers with broken cryptographic ideas [✓]
Broken de-centralization that will tend to centralization [✓]

Congratulations. You passed your "broken crypto" review with flying colors.

Monero #REKT  

So I wonder if you're some sort of reverse troll. Why? Two reasons: First, TPTB_need_war has more and harsher criticisms of dash, so the best you can do is make dash look worse than Monero. Second, you're taking many of TPTB_need war's statements out of context and purposely removing the time stamps to mask that many of those quotations are very old and do not reflect his current understanding of Monero--which is probably going to piss him off and entice him to find more failures in dash--though that list is long already.

So who are you working for? Because you're not doing dash any favors  

[AlexGR]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

Anyway, let's say btc does 200k txs per day and monero does 200 txs per day. That's 1000 to 1 in terms of txs, yet the blockchain isn't 1/1000 of BTC, it's 1/25.

My 10x may be very conservative.

[noobtrader]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

Anyway, let's say btc does 200k txs per day and monero does 200 txs per day. That's 1000 to 1 in terms of txs, yet the blockchain isn't 1/1000 of BTC, it's 1/25.

My 10x may be very conservative.

The only way monero can scale if they make thousand clone of it may they will say its a test coin to monero and call it sombrero1, sombrero2, sombrero3 etc  

[AlexGR]

So I wonder if you're some sort of reverse troll.

Actually I'm doing precisely that. You are the (normal) trolls and I'm trolling you back. As you said it. Reverse troll.

Why? Two reasons: First, TPTB_need_war has more and harsher criticisms of dash, so the best you can do is make dash look worse than Monero.

In the context of this thread, it is a "given" that dash is bad crypto (just look at the title), so there's nothing to debate there. The OP made his mind based on a paper wallet generator and a theoretical instantx jamming scenario. So let's see what the "good crypto" is... and when you look more carefully, the self-proclaimed good crypto is broken everywhere

Second, you're taking many of TPTB_need war's statements out of context and purposely removing the time stamps

I can't always use time-stamped quotes on locked threads with the "quote" button. That's why I'm inserting a link instead where this is not possible.

[AlexGR]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

Anyway, let's say btc does 200k txs per day and monero does 200 txs per day. That's 1000 to 1 in terms of txs, yet the blockchain isn't 1/1000 of BTC, it's 1/25.

My 10x may be very conservative.

The only way monero can scale if they make thousand clone of it may they will say its a test coin to monero and call it sombrero1, sombrero2, sombrero3 etc  

Sombrero ahahahhaahahaha that cracked me up

[generalizethis]

It took me 30 seconds to find out that this is BS:

Second, you're taking many of TPTB_need war's statements out of context and purposely removing the time stamps

I can't always use time-stamped quotes on locked threads with the "quote" button. That's why I'm inserting a link instead where this is not possible.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13575212#msg13575212 Here's one of your unattributed quotations that wasn't locked, are the rest as locked?

And here's me quoting it with the quote button (*notice it's 3 months old).

Monero is not anonymous when your metadata can be correlated. One example of metadata which unmasks your anonymity is your IP And IP address is not the only metadata that can destroy your anonymity in ring signatures. Other examples can include cookies in your browser and other activity you did on the web. Other examples also include telephone calls and other activity you did around that time, which have statistical significance.

And here's what he says today on this thread (which you may or may not read in full).

Now that you quoted the entire post, does it change the fact that he says MONERO IS A BROKEN DESIGN?

Not quite. I said Bitcoin is broken and both can't scale to million tx/s. But that doesn't make Monero broken for its target market. Bitcoin is broken both for scaling and for centralization of mining. Monero has advantages on the latter and also adds strong privacy.

My reasons for not wanting to be folded into the development group of Monero, is because I would be a little fish in a little pond. And I am not enthralled about coding on C++ code bases. So what is the redeeming factor, when I have so much opportunity and excitement on what I am working on now? I find it a bit insulting (but more humorous and motivates my competitive fire) when iCEBREAKER and americanpegasus insinuate that the only useful coding I could do in this world would be on the itsy bitsy coins they own. That is because they are speculators and not developers. The developers don't say that to me, because they know better.

And what he says comparing dash and Monero's privacy on this thread.

Regarding Monero's anonymity, do you stand by the statement you've expressed below in the past (regarding broken anonymity due to metadata correlation)?

Cryptonote was created by anonymous people. Even Monero's cryptographer is anonymous. Who created this anonymity that is easily broken by meta-data. I don't know if that is circumspect or just the way the world turns.

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin. Notice I wrote "privacy" and not anonymity in prior post upthread. For privacy, I think Monero is suitable and Dash is not (because not autonomous End-to-End).

I guess my quote button works fine, maybe you should hire an expert to look over your system to see what's wrong instead of just accepting it as broken.

[smooth]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

The 2.5 GB is not proportional to the past hour, nor is the past hour representative of all hours. A huge portion of of the entire chain, perhaps half or more, was created within the first few months due to immature pool software doing payouts stupidly, and also when there is occasionally much higher activity (during pumps, mostly). Bitcoin also didn't have that sort of usage for whole lifetime; for the first year or two it was close to dead, and up until last year the usage was significantly lower. With 2k-3k tx/block during its entire life, Bitcoin's blockchain would be much more than 25x bigger.

Overall these sorts of crude comparisons just don't make sense, and just show you are more interested in trolling than thinking.

[AlexGR]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

The 2.5 GB is not proportional to the past hour, nor is the past hour representative of all hours. A huge portion of of the entire chain, perhaps half or more, was created within the first few months due to immature pool software doing payouts stupidly, and also when there is occasionally much higher activity (during pumps, mostly). Bitcoin also didn't have that sort of usage for whole lifetime; for the first year or two it was close to dead, and up until last year the usage was significantly lower. With 2k-3k tx/block during its entire life, Bitcoin's blockchain would be much more than 25x bigger.

Overall these sorts of crude comparisons just don't make sense, and just show you are more interested in trolling than thinking.

Actually, now that you mention it, I haven't even factored that BTC's blockchain is 7+ years old vs 2 years old of XMR.

Anyway, let's make a hypothetical here.

How much bloat would Monero generate for 20.000 tx per day (1/10th of what bitcoin does), at a relatively low mixin level 3.

[AlexGR]

I guess my quote button works fine, maybe you should hire an expert to look over your system to see what's wrong instead of just accepting it as broken.

I just insert quote / unquote by hand if it's from the SAME post that I'm quoting. I quoted 4 pieces. The first has the timestamp, the second, right below it, doesn't need to. It's the same post (as the first).

The third (from a locked thread) isn't quotable, so I'm just inserting the message link. The fourth doesn't need the link again. It's the same post (as the third).

In case anyone is stupid enough to don't get it, there are "..." between (quote 1/quote 2) and (quote 3/quote 4)

But then again, arguing about quotes, timestamps, trolls, etc, seems to be all that you can do in this debate where XMR is proven to be bad crypto  

[generalizethis]

I guess my quote button works fine, maybe you should hire an expert to look over your system to see what's wrong instead of just accepting it as broken.

I just insert quote / unquote by hand if it's from the SAME post that I'm quoting. I quoted 4 pieces. The first has the timestamp, the second, right below it, doesn't need to. It's the same post (as the first).

The third (from a locked thread) isn't quotable, so I'm just inserting the message link. The fourth doesn't need the link again. It's the same post (as the third).

In case anyone is stupid enough to don't get it, there are "..." between (quote 1/quote 2) and (quote 3/quote 4)

But then again, arguing about quotes, timestamps, trolls, etc, seems to be all that you can do in this debate where XMR is proven to be bad crypto  

Let's get back to the point.

Regarding Monero's anonymity, do you stand by the statement you've expressed below in the past (regarding broken anonymity due to metadata correlation)?

Cryptonote was created by anonymous people. Even Monero's cryptographer is anonymous. Who created this anonymity that is easily broken by meta-data. I don't know if that is circumspect or just the way the world turns.

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin. Notice I wrote "privacy" and not anonymity in prior post upthread. For privacy, I think Monero is suitable and Dash is not (because not autonomous End-to-End).

[smooth]

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

The 2.5 GB is not proportional to the past hour, nor is the past hour representative of all hours. A huge portion of of the entire chain, perhaps half or more, was created within the first few months due to immature pool software doing payouts stupidly, and also when there is occasionally much higher activity (during pumps, mostly). Bitcoin also didn't have that sort of usage for whole lifetime; for the first year or two it was close to dead, and up until last year the usage was significantly lower. With 2k-3k tx/block during its entire life, Bitcoin's blockchain would be much more than 25x bigger.

Overall these sorts of crude comparisons just don't make sense, and just show you are more interested in trolling than thinking.

Actually, now that you mention it, I haven't even factored that BTC's blockchain is 7+ years old vs 2 years old of XMR.

Anyway, let's make a hypothetical here.

How much bloat would Monero generate for 20.000 tx per day (1/10th of what bitcoin does), at a relatively low mixin level 3.

A typical transaction is like that is 2-3 KB compared to maybe 0.5 KB on bitcoin (rough numbers), so a ratio of about 5x. That's still not a valid comparison, because if people ever use any kind of mixing services on Bitcoin (and they do), that makes up part of the higher tx volume and reduces the effective ratio. BTW, the same argument has been made by Adam Back with respect to CT's larger transactions. You have to compare not only transactions numbers and size, but adjust for some sort of equivalent level of functionality per transaction.

[AlexGR]

The typical btc tx is around 0.3kb, so, at 2-3kb for monero we are talking 6.6-10x.

I understand all the different characteristics, but it's precisely these characteristics that give the bloat.

[AlexGR]

Let's get back to the point.

The point is the FRAUDulent claim of

Monero: the secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency https://getmonero.org

It should have an asterisk saying, we do not guarantee that your TXs are secure, private or untraceable by the government. Otherwise people could get imprisoned or even die due to this bad and fraudulent crypto  

XMR #REKT.

[smooth]

The typical btc tx is around 0.3kb

It's not. It is closer to 0.5KB-1 KB, in some blocks >1 KB

Look at the recent blocks.