Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market?

[velacreations]

Nothing about bitcoin changes this.  Almost all laws banning things ban the distribution AND sale so that even if you gave it away for free it would not be any different.

yes, the laws speak specifically to the sale of raw milk.  I am not sure about giving away for free, and consumption is legal (you can drink the milk from your own animals).

[1714157063]

1714157063

[MoonShadow]

here in australia you can legally buy unprocessed 'bath milk', as long as you're only using it to add to your bath water and not drinking it *wink wink*

is this not possible in the US?

First of all, bathing in milk is very uncommon in the US, and usually only happens in spas.  But the answer to your question is no, not legally.

[MoonShadow]

Nothing about bitcoin changes this.  Almost all laws banning things ban the distribution AND sale so that even if you gave it away for free it would not be any different.

This is generally not true in the United States.  Since the consumption of raw milk isn't actually something that can be banned under US law, for a variety of historical reasons, it's actually the act of engaging in commerce that is prohibited with raw milk.  It's actually a law that exists to favor major dairy producers & grocery stores, since raw milk wouldn't safely survive the lengthy trip from factory farm to the grocery store to the average home refrigerator reliablely enough to compete with the small farmer who simply offers the day's raw milk for purchase.  Raw milk, kept refrigerated and consumed quickly, isn't dangerous.  It's the delay that the modern food industry adds to the mix that is risky.  Bear in mind, milk was designed to be consumed immediately; yet well before the age of refrigeration, the early production of cheese was a process that took days.

[payb.tc]

here in australia you can legally buy unprocessed 'bath milk', as long as you're only using it to add to your bath water and not drinking it *wink wink*

is this not possible in the US?

First of all, bathing in milk is very uncommon in the US, and usually only happens in spas.  But the answer to your question is no, not legally.

yeah the point is noone here actually bathes with bath milk either... that's just what goes on the label to make it legit

[velacreations]

This is generally not true in the United States.  Since the consumption of raw milk isn't actually something that can be banned under US law, for a variety of historical reasons, it's actually the act of engaging in commerce that is prohibited with raw milk. 

so, the question then becomes, what is the definition of commerce, and by what time scale?  If someone sends you a bitcoin payment today, and you give them raw milk next month in person while you are just chatting in the parking lot, have you committed a crime?  Or, if someone gave you a piece of paper, and you gave them raw milk, is that commerce?

I think there might be a gray area here that could be exploited, but it would have to be done in just the right way to have legal protection. 

[Daily Anarchist]

I live in New Hampshire and purchase raw milk from my coop. It's legal here in the home of the Free State Project.

Some may say it's more dangerous than pasteurized milk. I say fooey.

I suspect that the reason the dairy cartel pushed for pasteurization laws so long ago is because their dairy practices were so bad, and so unhealthy that the milk WAS dangerous and needed to be pasteurized just to keep people from getting sick. Problem was the bad companies didn't want to be the ONLY ones pasteurizing their milk, because it was a sign to the customers that their milk was unsanitary. So, they pushed for laws to force EVERY dairy farmer to pasteurize so that the bad companies wouldn't stick out like sore thumbs. It's also no coincidence that only big corporate farms could feasibly absorb the cost of milk pasteurization, whereas the little organic dairy down the road couldn't. So, the little guy down the road went out of business and corporate dairy rules the day.

I think PASTEURIZED milk is unhealthier than RAW milk, because in order to sell RAW milk you've got to have good clean, safe and sanitary dairy practices. Those that pasteurize can afford to get blood and puss and feces contaminating their milk because it's all going to get pasteurized anyways.

Oh, and by the way, anybody who thinks government regulations are about safety need to pull their heads out of their asses. Government regulations are NEVER about safety and ALWAYS about stifling innovation and squishing competition!

[mc_lovin]

You should all watch this movie:

http://farmageddonmovie.com/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1609113/

[Littleshop]

Nothing about bitcoin changes this.  Almost all laws banning things ban the distribution AND sale so that even if you gave it away for free it would not be any different.

yes, the laws speak specifically to the sale of raw milk.  I am not sure about giving away for free, and consumption is legal (you can drink the milk from your own animals).

"sale or distribution"

Yes drinking from your own cow is ok. Getting it free from someone else is distribution.

[Dayofswords]

Raw milk is obviously more dangerous then pasteurized.  You are 10x more likely to get sick from raw milk then from pasteurized.

All things being equal, that might be true, but they're not. Consider that store-bought milk is mixed together from many different suppliers.

How can you say its 10x more dangerous? Got any peer-reviewed studies to prove that? By what basis is it considered more dangerous?

Why, yes! There is a such a study!

From the CDC's nice little wrap-up on it

• During 1993–2006, 121 outbreaks reported to CDC were caused by dairy products where the investigators could determine if the dairy product was pasteurized or unpasteurized (raw). These outbreaks included 4,413 illnesses, 239 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths.
• 73 outbreaks (46 from fluid milk and 27 from cheese) were caused by raw milk, and 48 outbreaks (10 from fluid milk and 38 from cheese) were caused by pasteurized milk.
• Probably no more than 1% of the milk consumed in the United States is raw, yet more outbreaks were caused by raw milk than by pasteurized milk.
• If you consider the number of outbreaks caused by raw milk in light of the very small amount of milk that is consumed raw, the risk of outbreaks caused by raw milk is at least 150 times greater than the risk of outbreaks caused by pasteurized milk.[/li

If you want to go by outbreak count, it means you are 150 times more likely to become sick.

Not good enough?  Then let's go by illnesses count(sick/hospital/death) The study (which you can read in full here http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/18/3/pdfs/11-1370.pdf ) says

Source	Illnesses	hospitalizations	Deaths
Raw	1,571	202	2
Pasteurized	2,842	37	1

First thought? "See! Pasteurized milk is more dangerous! More people got sick!" Wrong. More got sick in the same sense that three people got sick at a high school and two got sick at home for home school, does that make home school safer? Hell no. But back to numbers. For the sake of simplicity let's say everyone drinks milk in the US(US pop 313,914,040), 99% drink pasteurized milk, 1% drinks raw. The percent of people who have been harmed by pasteurized milk is 0.00089629% or about 9 per million users, but at the same time, the percent of those who have been harmed by raw milk is 0.0500455% or about 500.4 per million users

If you go by illness count, drinking raw milk means you are 55 times more likely to become sick

Want to go by hospitalizations next? 540 times more likely to end up in the hostipal

How about deaths, surely you don't want to die, becuase you are 198 times more likely to die

This study was conducted by a group who are accredited by the ACCME ("ACCME? who the hell are they?!") which is a council who set the standard for continuing medication education Founded by the lovely people at the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS), the American Hospital Association (AHA), the American Medical Association (AMA), the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC), the Association for Hospital Medical Education (AHME), the Council of Medical Specialty Societies (CMSS), and the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB)

You're turn. You have a study saying it's safer?

[benjamindees]

The legal argument is sound, and this would be a good market for Bitcoin.  But I kind of doubt that the market is that large.

[cbeast]

Does raw milk go better with raw cookie dough? 

[Boussac]

If you guys want to die of food poisoning, that's fine with me.

This shows how powerful the propaganda of the "processed food" lobby is: their FUD make you think that it can be dangerous  not to buy their shit..
Same mechanism is used by banks to denigrate bitcoin.

[MoonShadow]

If you guys want to die of food poisoning, that's fine with me.

This shows how powerful the propaganda of the "processed food" lobby is: their FUD make you think that it can be dangerous  not to buy their shit..
Same mechanism is used by banks to denigrate bitcoin.

Food safety is relative.  For example, nearly all salt for human consumption in the industrilized world contains iodine, because lack of iodine goitre in adults, and some types of mental retardation in infants.  Is the sale of tablesalt without added iodine illegal in the US?  No, it's not.  It simply has to be marked so that it cannot be confused with "regular" tablesalt.  I can buy it at Kroger or Wal-Mart under the names "Sea Salt", "Kosher Salt" or "Pickling Salt"; but it just never says just "Salt"unless it contains iodine.  Which is more dangerous, consuming raw milk (quickly enough to be reasonable) or consuming Kosher Salt?  Almost certainly the latter, but that point is moot.  Unpasterized milk should not be illegal in the United States, the idea is as Un-American as the table salt ban in NY city.

EDIT:  Additionally, consuming raw milk is as safe as pasturized, if the milk is consumed within a 24 hour period.  This was the economic motivation of the daily "milk man" deliveries of yesteryear.  They didn't even bother to refigerate it even after refrigerators were common.  To additionally reduce risk and impede bacterial growth, the milk man would usually add a silver dime to each bottle.  The silver in the dime would give off silver ions into the milk, which would not harm people but was toxic to bacteria.

[caveden]

If you guys want to die of food poisoning, that's fine with me.

Come on, don't be ridiculous. I've drunk raw milk all my childhood and I never had "food poisoning". You just boil it before drinking and you're good to go. You should also consider that it spoils much faster, like bread (when I was a child, we used to buy bread and milk at the same time at the bakery, for the day).
I've actually drunk milk that had just left the cow directly to my glass a couple times and didn't have any issues either.

Raw milk is obviously more dangerous then pasteurized.  You are 10x more likely to get sick from raw milk then from pasteurized.

Impressive.
You know what I just found out? If you buy 10 lottery tickets, you're 10x more likely to win the prize!! 


 

[velacreations]

Nothing about bitcoin changes this.  Almost all laws banning things ban the distribution AND sale so that even if you gave it away for free it would not be any different.

yes, the laws speak specifically to the sale of raw milk.  I am not sure about giving away for free, and consumption is legal (you can drink the milk from your own animals).

"sale or distribution"

Yes drinking from your own cow is ok. Getting it free from someone else is distribution.

to my knowledge, the laws do not say sale and distribution.  They specifically prohibit "sales".  Each state is different, though

It is important to note that the FDA has banned "interstate sales" of raw milk.  So, if you sell within your own state, you are fine, as far as Federal Law.

[TTBit]

Years ago, Mathis Dairies in Atlanta was forced by the FDA to put a label on the milk that came right from the cow, bottled then delivered to local residents. Label read "ARTIFICIAL MILK"

[Herodes]

You should all watch this movie:

http://farmageddonmovie.com/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1609113/

From imdb:

Farmageddon is the story of a mom whose son healed from all allergies and asthma after consuming raw milk, and real food from farms. It depicts people all over the country who formed food co-ops and private clubs to get these foods, and how they were raided by state and local governments

Incredible that peaceful people obtaining and making healthy food is raided by anyone.

[Littleshop]

Raw milk is obviously more dangerous then pasteurized.  You are 10x more likely to get sick from raw milk then from pasteurized.

Impressive.
You know what I just found out? If you buy 10 lottery tickets, you're 10x more likely to win the prize!! 


 

I found that out by going to a pro-raw milk website.  They feel the risk is negligible but still higher then regular milk.  I am pro-raw milk.  Basically it is about freedom, the right to control ones own food and allowing the small farmer to profit from his work.

[Herodes]

Total inhabitants:
313,914,040

Raw milk drinkers: 1%
Pasteruized milk drinkers: 99%

Raw milk hospital cases: 202
Pasteruized milk hospital cases: 37


Chance of being hospitalized after drinking raw milk: 0.000064%
Chance of being hospitalized after drinking pasteruized milk: 0.000000119%

The chance of actually dying would naturally be even smaller.

Chance of being struck by lightening during one year in the US: 0.000001%
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike

Chance of dying in a car accident during one year in the US: 1.49%
Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081015210636AAoQgNK

Now, drinking raw milk may seem dangerous if you say that it is more than 500 times more dangerous to drink raw milk than pasteurized milk, however when realizing that the risks are so small, a multiple of 500 is really not that much.

There's actually a 0.000003001% chance that you during the next year is accidentaly hit by some object and die.

The risk that you drown during the next year is 0.000011971%

The risk that you get assaulted the next year and die is 0.000061256.

So from the looks of things, it seems like that the risk of drinking raw milk is about the same risk as getting ambushed and killed.

And it gets worse. If you're pregnant, you have a 0.0002% chance of actually dying when giving birth.

The risk of you dying at work the next year is: 0.000035%

The risk of you dying at home the next year is: 0.000127%

So, the conclusion is that your risk of dying at home during the next year is twice as big as the risk of you getting hospitalized from drinking raw milk.

Now, do you live in fear of dying in your home ?

Source: http://www.riskcomm.com/visualaids/riskscale/datasources.php


Edit: The problem seems to be that certain businesses are lobbying for certain rules to be made by the government. This is more often than not to stiffle competition and to gain an advantage, giving the small guys poorer leverage. Also, clean facts often seems to be missing, and many people believe the governmental propaganda without really looking hard at it. A great government would actually look hard at the facts and the numbers and see where they should put in their efforts. From what we can see about stats above, it seems like safer cars and safer roads would be better to focus on than preventing farmers from selling raw milk.

[velacreations]

the fact remains that raw milk is a big market. There is no denying that.  Regardless if you believe in it or not, it's there.

There are farmers that are willing to sell it, and people willing to buy it, but can't.  Can bitcoin help with this situation?  I think so, but you have to do it just right to meet the requirements of the law.

How do you think we could make it work?