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Author Topic: Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally?  (Read 23326 times)
MoonShadow
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February 22, 2013, 06:58:42 PM
 #181

If there's no worm / incentive for the early bird, then things never happen.

I think it's as fair as it could be that people get compensated for inventing things that deliver UNIMAGINABLE VALUE.

Also, there's no such thing as "fairness."

There certainly is fairness.
Its just that fairness doesn't mean everyone enjoys the fruits of other's labors.
Bitcoin is fair. This is why people use it and this is why people want to make it unfair via redistribution

No.

Fairness is a subjective valuation.

Justice is not, which why justice is often harsh.  Bitcoin is just, and it can't work any other way.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Domrada
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February 22, 2013, 10:41:02 PM
 #182


No.

Fairness is a subjective valuation.

Justice is not, which why justice is often harsh.  Bitcoin is just, and it can't work any other way.

fair·ness [fair-nis]
noun

the state, condition, or quality of being free from bias or injustice;

nice try.  they are synonyms.  get over yourself.

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February 24, 2013, 07:32:50 PM
 #183


No.

Fairness is a subjective valuation.

Justice is not, which why justice is often harsh.  Bitcoin is just, and it can't work any other way.

fair·ness [fair-nis]
noun

the state, condition, or quality of being free from bias or injustice;

nice try.  they are synonyms.  get over yourself.

Nothing gained: Neither bias nor justice or its opposite injustice can be determined without a subjective valuation.
Just because lots of people share an opinion doesn't make it insubjective.

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clark3934
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February 24, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
 #184

If you want to make things "fair", you have to invent some sort of mechanism for creating and verifying identity, or else you'll be vulnerable to a Sybil attack. Since some of the main selling points of bitcoin are its pseudo-anonymity and proof of work system, which require no trust, sharing BTC "fairly" isn't really possible without fundamentally altering the protocol itself.
memvola
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February 27, 2013, 03:43:23 PM
 #185

Sorry to bump this awful thread, but it's interesting to observe the exact scenario I explained here happening with Ripple's XRP. People who think it will be useful in the future are buying them in bulk while ones who want to make a quick buck sell everything they've got (minus the 200 residue left in accounts).

In the end, even if you distribute FairCoin to everyone on Earth equally, they will, within a blink of time, consolidate in the hands of people who believe in it. They will be the early adopters. I think all in all, assuming it became as successful as Bitcoin, early adopters of Faircoin would have a higher percentage of total coins than Bitcoin early miners.

This is not a bad thing at all. Only that the ultimate consequence of this idea must be blatantly clear. Faircoin would be a misnomer, or a reference to an irony.
Beepbop
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February 27, 2013, 05:22:11 PM
 #186

In the end, even if you distribute FairCoin to everyone on Earth equally, they will, within a blink of time, consolidate in the hands of people who believe in it.
No, most of them would sit unused by people who don't know what they are. The real losers in this case will be people who signed up just to sell off their coins, while the winners would be those who wait to join until they've actually become useful for something.

Of course, this is all depending on if the coins ever will become useful. If they never will, the masses are none the wiser, and the true losers would be the ones who bought coins in the beginning.

They will be the early adopters. I think all in all, assuming it became as successful as Bitcoin, early adopters of Faircoin would have a higher percentage of total coins than Bitcoin early miners.
Not early adopters, but those who sold too low or bought too high - as in any market.

Sure, within Bitcoin the early adopters are king of the hill, but when Bitcoin itself is mostly rejected by the market for this exact reason - among others - that's not so great anymore. Mining Bitcoin could be compared to working to buy one of those certificates that says you own a particular star, when in fact possession is 90% of the law and there's an international treaty against making claims in space.

This is not a bad thing at all. Only that the ultimate consequence of this idea must be blatantly clear. Faircoin would be a misnomer, or a reference to an irony.
It IS fair. My concept of a fair competition is that it presents equal opportunity, not equal consequence.
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February 27, 2013, 05:55:34 PM
 #187

My concept of a fair competition is that it presents equal opportunity, not equal consequence.

Bitcoin!
memvola
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February 27, 2013, 08:01:18 PM
 #188

No, most of them would sit unused by people who don't know what they are.

Why do you think that? Strong hands have an incentive to reach those who are uninformed, and they would be the biggest losers in the game.

They will be the early adopters. I think all in all, assuming it became as successful as Bitcoin, early adopters of Faircoin would have a higher percentage of total coins than Bitcoin early miners.
Not early adopters, but those who sold too low or bought too high - as in any market.

By early adopters, I meant those who bought too low.

Sure, within Bitcoin the early adopters are king of the hill, but when Bitcoin itself is mostly rejected by the market for this exact reason - among others - that's not so great anymore. Mining Bitcoin could be compared to working to buy one of those certificates that says you own a particular star, when in fact possession is 90% of the law and there's an international treaty against making claims in space.

But the competing idea isn't any better, you still have the great minority owning great majority of coins. Also, I didn't get the analogy.

My concept of a fair competition is that it presents equal opportunity, not equal consequence.

Bitcoin!

Exactly.
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February 27, 2013, 09:56:53 PM
 #189

Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally?

let me think.. No.



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February 28, 2013, 12:15:27 PM
 #190

Why do you think that? Strong hands have an incentive to reach those who are uninformed, and they would be the biggest losers in the game.
Wouldn't that just mean that there's more incentive for people to market the new currency, leading to more public awareness of it? Sure, a couple of mooks might be tricked into selling their windfall far under going rate, like those people taken in by various gold buyers today and tricked into selling valuable gold jewelry for below scrap value, but it would definitely lead to word of mouth and mass media attention about why this is valuable.

By early adopters, I meant those who bought too low.
Whether it's high or low, they don't know yet. When I talk about early adopters, I mean people who actually adopt it early. As in people who start actually using it for useful things before most people, not just people who staked a claim in fantasy property.

But the competing idea isn't any better, you still have the great minority owning great majority of coins.
Not unless the original owners willingly sold or gave away their original stake. But you are on to something here: The rest of the world could just sell their coins to the early speculators, and then go start their own fork. The fork that would win would be the one that is actually used for useful transactions.

Ripple has IOUs in the mix, which changes the game. Now there's actually something persistent and tangible that gives the system inertia.
Also, I didn't get the analogy.
There can be any number of companies selling "deeds" to deep space real estate. If I name a star in one registry, the same star could be "owned" by somebody else in the other registry. If I buy a tract of "property" on Mars from one company, another company could sell me the same tract of land, and both "deeds" would be equally unenforceable.

The fact that the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy is limited in our lifetime, and the size of Mars is known and finite, doesn't mean that people that bought a whole sector of the galaxy are actually richer than the rest of us, unless they're able to convince us that we should respect their chosen star registry as an actual ownership.

Even if you could have a market for Martian "property" online, and people would buy second hand "deeds" from each other, the rest of the world wouldn't have any incentive to reward these people for being early birds to the fictitious Mars deed market when Mars actually gets colonized and terraformed. And what about the competing registries (forks) where the same Martian property is shown as being owned by a different person?

On the other hand, an online P2P property registry that actually dealt with Earth real property, and reflected the true owner of land here on Earth, might actually have a chance of taking off, if it started out containing information about those who actually owned the property today.

It would not work if this property registry showed that 99% of the Earth land was owned by guys who bought lots of GPUs and participated in a "mining" lottery where the surface of the Earth was doled out between them. Bitcoin has the same type of problem being accepted by the world economy as a currency.
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February 28, 2013, 01:00:47 PM
 #191

It would not work if this property registry showed that 99% of the Earth land was owned by guys who bought lots of GPUs and participated in a "mining" lottery where the surface of the Earth was doled out between them. Bitcoin has the same type of problem being accepted by the world economy as a currency.

I'm puzzled with most of your argument mainly because you are explaining why Bitcoin won't be accepted at the same time as evidence is pouring in that it is increasingly being accepted.  It is nice to fantasise that the vast majority of potential new currency users would philosophise about the principles underlying it and decide whether or not to endorse it by using it.  And even if they did I suspect if they thought about it long enough, reasoned it out or debated it here, most would conclude the way it is being done for Bitcoin is actually pretty good. 

But we're talking about 'the unwashed masses' here.  Just imagine those who have just heard on facebook that their mate just bought some gadget at wholesale prices from BitcoinStore (1 month offer announced today) but only if you use this weird new internet money stuff which you get from Wallmart, how many of them do you think would even think of let alone be stopped by ideological ethical considerations?

On your point comparing Bitcoin with land I am even more emphatic.  True, Bitcoin and land have  in common the fact that there are finite amounts of both and I can see your parallel with distribution starting off with a small number of players.  However if Bitcoin does succeed the the long-term purposes for which it will be used will be as a store of wealth, a medium of exchange, a means of transferring money anywhere worldwide etc.  How is this affected detrimentally by early-adopter hoarding?

There is an essential difference between bitcoin and land.  Land speculation and hoarding is causing all kinds of problems to most economies for the simple reason that less available land means the amount that can be bought with your money is less.  With Bitcoin not so.

Let's say we have the whole of the world's land split equally between 1000 initial owners and 999 of them decide simply to keep their own.  This leaves .1% of the world's land available to the rest of the world population.  It is a problem because you can't grow the same amount of crops on a plot 1000th the size of another.  You can't sleep in a bedroom made 1000th the size of another.

But if it were the same case with Bitcoin - that the initial Bitcoin total was split equally between 1000 owners.  Assuming Bitcoin even took off if 99.9% of early adopters just sat on them in this case too we only have .1% of all existing bitcoin for everybody else's use.  BUT people can still do exactly the same with the amount available to them as they could if the it were 1000 x as much. 

Of course there are potential problems if some people have many many many times the wealth of others but that is what we have today.  One of the differences is that today a significant number of the extremely wealthy are also large historic land owners and have been for generations reaping the benefit of labour and public spending reflected in the increased value of their land.  Another difference is that today governmental control over how businesses run and governmental crippling of economies via taxation on the productive keep many many in poverty.  There are problems of jealousy and there will always be problems of jealousy.  But if the advantages of being wealthy do not impact negatively on the not-wealthy jealousy is an attitude problem of the jealous and not something that can be fixed by redistributing wealth.

And although I am a fan of Land Value Tax (I don't believe Bitcoin will solve everything) I am pleased it looks like a significant proportion of those with Bitcoin holdings that would be worth an absolute fortune if it takes off are volunteerists and libertarians and are therefore unlikely to be wanting to use force to manipulate others but are likely instead to be out there offering services and creating jobs with their money.  The likelihood of that being anywhere near in the league of as bad as things are now are I believe remote to zero!
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February 28, 2013, 03:47:34 PM
 #192

Why do you think that? Strong hands have an incentive to reach those who are uninformed, and they would be the biggest losers in the game.
Wouldn't that just mean that there's more incentive for people to market the new currency, leading to more public awareness of it? Sure, a couple of mooks might be tricked into selling their windfall far under going rate, like those people taken in by various gold buyers today and tricked into selling valuable gold jewelry for below scrap value, but it would definitely lead to word of mouth and mass media attention about why this is valuable.

I'm puzzled by your perception of reality.

How do you give someone something and not have to tell them what it is?

How is Faircoin even valuable? It has zero value, like Bitcoin had. Am I missing a fundamental aspect of your design?

Why would it get any media attention? Why would it be pro-Faircoin?

Since it has zero use, almost everyone would exchange them for very little (I have given two real-world examples to this). And this is rational. If you want me to understand your reasoning, tell me why this would be irrational somehow. You exchange something that has zero value with something that has value.

The difference between strong hands and weak hands for a specific instrument is not that one of them is more rational than the other. What if Faircoin fails miserably? The ones who accumulated it would lose a lot of money. That's why they have incentive to do something about it. The fact that they have the means to do it makes them stronger hands, not the fact that they are more rational. The means could be know-how, capital and/or social connections.

Actually, this is not very hard to demonstrate. Give all the forum accounts one Faircoin. Don't even say that you did to each and every one, just assign it somehow. The accounting would be very straightforward, but you could create a blockchain for that too. See how almost instantly everyone will get rid of these coins in exchange for goods or BTC.

But the competing idea isn't any better, you still have the great minority owning great majority of coins.
Not unless the original owners willingly sold or gave away their original stake. But you are on to something here: The rest of the world could just sell their coins to the early speculators, and then go start their own fork. The fork that would win would be the one that is actually used for useful transactions.

There is a heap paradox here. How will you decide when is early? Say, a couple of months in, people forked the chain to get rid of the early adopters (erm, "early speculators" with your terms). Then a year in... Then a couple of years in... This would only prove that the currency is not useful as it is.

Besides, the real world example to this is the almighty Bitcoin. Who even forked Bitcoin to get rid of early adopters, let alone succeeded? How is it any different. With your logic, Bitcoin is even worse, so such forks should happen all the time. Right?
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February 28, 2013, 04:29:02 PM
 #193

No, but even if it was how would it work logistically as a currency, each time a new person joins does everyone lose a fraction of their Bitcoins to that person to ensure it is equal?
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February 28, 2013, 05:19:36 PM
Last edit: February 28, 2013, 05:34:05 PM by Beepbop
 #194

I'm puzzled with most of your argument mainly because you are explaining why Bitcoin won't be accepted at the same time as evidence is pouring in that it is increasingly being accepted.  
I'm seeing it being used for a few transactions that wouldn't really care if 1 BTC = 0.00001 USD or 1 BTC = 1,000,000 USD - and the rest being pure speculation.
how many of them do you think would even think of let alone be stopped by ideological ethical considerations?
I talked about how it would go against their self interest to adopt it as a replacement currency.

Some might be stopped by ethical considerations like opposition to illegal drugs for example, and I know some people who limit their use of cash on purpose, but that's not what I talked about.

Never in this thread did I tear down Bitcoin as a payment processor, where Bitcoins are a temporary intermediate that you don't have to hold for longer than the transaction takes.

But it would be a fundamental problem with getting people to adopt it as a currency. As in, pricing their goods in Bitcoin, keeping substantial savings in Bitcoin, etc.
However if Bitcoin does succeed the the long-term purposes for which it will be used will be as a store of wealth, a medium of exchange, a means of transferring money anywhere worldwide etc.  How is this affected detrimentally by early-adopter hoarding?
My precise point is that early-adopter hoarding is a hindrance to its success for those uses, since it'll cause rejection by the "unwashed masses".

Since it's trivial to replace it with yet another fork, there's no incentive for users to reward early miners just for being early miners. Unlike real property, unreal property is potentially infinite. If 99.9% of BitEarth v.1 is owned by 999 early adopters, just make yourself BitEarth v.2 where you own a couple of continents for yourself.

There are already government and legal approaches to the land issue, as you've mentioned. For example, there's laws about adverse possession where squatters who actually use the land can take it over from an inactive property holder, land taxes that make it expensive to keep land unproductive, etc.

I'm puzzled by your perception of reality.

How do you give someone something and not have to tell them what it is?

How is Faircoin even valuable? It has zero value, like Bitcoin had. Am I missing a fundamental aspect of your design?

Why would it get any media attention? Why would it be pro-Faircoin?
It would first have to be be used by somebody for transactions. Then if people started actually paying USD for it, people who wanted to cash out on this would be joining, and this would create attention: Somebody created a cryptocurrency that has been handed out in a finite amount, and some people will actually pay you for them, or offer goods or services for them. That would cause word of mouth and media attention.

If you want me to understand your reasoning, tell me why this would be irrational somehow. You exchange something that has zero value with something that has value.
The Faircoin has two things going for it:
- It can be used to process transactions
- It has a known supply that's proportional to the world population, and everyone starts out with a certain amount.

If you want to throw that away that's fine. But if you believe that you'll need Faircoins in the future, you'd be better served to keep them and use them. Both are rational acts depending on whether you believe in the utility of the currency.

What if Faircoin fails miserably? The ones who accumulated it would lose a lot of money. That's why they have incentive to do something about it.
This sounds like throwing good money and time after a bad investment.

There is a heap paradox here. How will you decide when is early?
Every new person who comes in the door and wonders if this is something for them, would consider the people who came in as earlier than them. If you get handed a free "inheritance" and told "here's your Faircoins - you won't be given any more - spend them wisely" I would be more interested in that than a bunch of guys running around screaming about how their randomly generated bit strings are the currency of the future and please will you give me 35 USD for it.

Besides, the real world example to this is the almighty Bitcoin. Who even forked Bitcoin to get rid of early adopters, let alone succeeded? How is it any different. With your logic, Bitcoin is even worse, so such forks should happen all the time. Right?
It does.* And unfortunately the Faircoin would also suffer from the forking problem. While new adopters might be attracted to Faircoin, the people who sold off their Faircoin v.1 holdings in a fit of greed might be pushing for their Faircoin v.2 fork to be the new thing. That would be an interesting dynamic to study.

One interesting side effect, since Faircoins would be tied to a specific person, and transparent, could be that if people see that you've spent away your Faircoin v.1, they're not likely to trust you in Faircoin v.2 either. "Hey, you've already spent all your Faircoins - why are we to use your fork so you can double-spend?"

Maybe - just maybe - this might actually work? It would all rest on somebody starting actually using them for something useful.. Edit: Read: Something that you can pay for only with Faircoin, or more easily with Faircoin than anything else.

* While new forks happen all the time, the main competitor to the main Bitcoin fork is the "no thank you, keep your play money" fork.
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February 28, 2013, 07:19:24 PM
 #195


But it would be a fundamental problem with getting people to adopt it as a currency. As in, pricing their goods in Bitcoin, keeping substantial savings in Bitcoin, etc.

My precise point is that early-adopter hoarding is a hindrance to its success for those uses, since it'll cause rejection by the "unwashed masses".


I stopped bothering to read past this point.  How often have said "unwashed masses" ever rejected any value proposition on the basis that others before them had an "unfair" advantage? 

Exactly zero.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 05, 2013, 02:18:00 AM
 #196

between all the people?
I don't see the reason why a few people who were the first could gain a big share of the coins and people who want to buy coins now have to pay for them. and why would people will cooperate with such system.
I mean I only heard about this today, I would participate earlier if I knew about it.


just leave.

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March 05, 2013, 12:34:42 PM
 #197

what risk did they take? they got it for free.

being an early bitcoin adopter required you to read and understand the bitcoin software. Later adopters were able to rely on the expertise of others. Reading all of the code of a program AND understanding it has a substantial cost.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
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March 05, 2013, 01:41:50 PM
 #198

You could always start an alt-chain with the properties you want.
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March 05, 2013, 04:41:39 PM
 #199

From what I can see, there are dozens of different methods for obtaining "free" BTC right Now.
I DID just jump down to the bottom of this thread from the first page, so I am at risk of speaking from incomplete knowledge of the conversation,
or just being redundant, but it seems to me that the opportunities are there to GET some bitcoins, people Are Sharing,
or at least making available opportunities to earn some small amount, for things like watching videos, reviewing things,
or just "visit my site, help me generate some Traffic- Help me out, I'll help you out"
just to give people a leg up into the game.
Once again, at the risk of sounding ignorant, I ask the original poster if they have attempted to make use of these various avenues of getting some BTC,
or if they feel that these things are not enough for them?
Is this a "don't just throw me a Bone, I want a Steak!" kind of thing,
or a case of not scrolling through the posts to see what's out there before asking that question?
How is gimme gimme gimme "fair" anyway?
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March 05, 2013, 04:44:05 PM
 #200

Once again, at the risk of sounding ignorant, I ask the original poster if they have attempted to make use of these various avenues of getting some BTC,
or if they feel that these things are not enough for them?

The OP didn't want to work for wealth, he wanted it handed (redistributed) to him simply for existing.  
Work for money you got some crazy ideas son.
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