Russian Law Would Send Bitcoin Users to Jail as Cybercriminals

[BitcoinSupremo]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-28/russian-law-would-send-bitcoin-users-to-jail-as-cybercriminals

Russia is planning to punish users of cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin, saying anonymous, difficult to trace transactions help kidnappers and money launderers.

The Finance Ministry in Moscow plans to submit legislation next month that would punish those who use digital currencies with fines as high as 2.5 million rubles ($38,000) and jail sentences of up to seven years. As opponents criticize such regulations as futile in the face of the growing popularity of bitcoin, Russia joins countries including Bolivia, Iceland and Vietnam in taking steps to criminalize it.

“Bitcoin can be used to finance the shadow economy and crimes, and this risk we cannot allow in the Russia’s financial system, which we are striving to make transparent and healthy,” the press service of the central bank said in an e-mail.

Oh its bad news for us. And its good in their country because they cant buy drugs in deepweb it good but its bad to others that they dont buying drugs.. Its bad to like me earning only in bitcoin

\

Lol it actually doesn't stop people from buying drugs at deepweb, they use TOR browser, they bypass government ban easy way, they just need to use TAILS LINUX live CD as an OS which has already preinstalled Electrum there, this way they can still use bitcoin, they need to become a bit more tech savvy and everything will be fine.

Final word: Bitcoin cannot be banned.

[road to morocco]

>Contrary to general knowledge, bitcoin transactions are not anonymous.
Contrary to general knowledge, that's not the general knowledge. Bitcoin is pseudonymous. Strangely enough tho, you can't arrest 1MY5yFZZfcVbV5kw1VqCnhqMKARYV3UKAS, so watching an alphanumerical string selling CP to another alphanumerical string is not overly useful :-

>Bitcoin is just an efficient technology to transfer funds across borders without discriminating the receiver or the sender.
Sure, and an AK47 is just an efficient way to rapidly accelerate a small mass to roughly double the speed of sound. The fact that its unique use case scenario is wetting people is neither here nor there

You can't arrest bank accounts because they are made up of numbers, but you can trace people behind these numbers, can't you?

Yes. Because banks have to follow AML/KYC laws, and knowing the identity if the account holder is the most fundamental AML/KYC law. That's why you can arrest people behind bank accounts.
Bitcoin doesn't require you to provide 3 forms of ID to get an addy, making it difficult, if not outright impossible, to say which IRL person controls an address. This, in turn, makes arresting pedos hopped up on bath salts & feverishly yankin' it to CP difficult.
Do you get it now?

>Sure, and an AK47 is just an efficient way to rapidly accelerate a small mass to roughly double the speed of sound. The fact that its unique use case scenario is wetting people is neither here nor there

I love AK47, you are right it is very effective. Works in deserts, when wet. Much better than M16. What's your point?

I should not use bitcoin to transfer funds because it its cheaper and faster than wire transfer?

I'm saying that just as "Bitcoin is just an efficient technology to transfer funds across borders without discriminating the receiver or the sender," an AK is just an efficient way to accelerate a small mass, "without discriminating the receiver or the sender."
The fact that AK's unique use case scenario is killing people is as irrelevant as the fact that Bitcoin's unique use case scenario is doing illegal shit. What don't you get?

[Blacula X]

It is because of the criminals who use bitcoin, because of these criminals a lot of other people also lost access to that beneficial currency, the government should have to device some other procedures to stop the criminals to use it.

Someone ban the dollar because criminals are using it to finance their illegal actions. Cash is so untraceable, we have to do something about it.

For government to use the "criminals" excuse is absolutely absurd.

Welcome to bitcointalk, newfriend, nice first post.
You seem upset that the Russian government wants to ban Bitcoin, the de facto currency of internet crime from child pornographers to crank dealers to Ransomware h4xx0r0rs.
I realize how unsettling this injustice must be for a freedom lover such as yourself.

While I agree with you that issuance of own currency is as fundamental to freedoms as free speech and ownership of comically pimped-out assault weapons with clownishly oversized mags, do try to understand that if the sole unique use case scenario for cash was buying drugs and kiddie porn on DNMs, it would have been banned long ago.
I hope you understand

Would like to share with you a link I have found recently to visualise how small bitcoin really is ))) 

http://money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization/

Well ya, like a solitary cockroach you see scurrying across your floor -- let it go and BAM! you got a disgusting infestation on your hands. You MUST kill it before it lays eggs!

[road to morocco]

^^
>Buying bitcoin requires ID
If you bought BTC with a valid ID, you're doing it wrong. But don't worry, use any mixing service advertised on this forum, or "gamble" on any illegal interweb dice site promoted here, and you're good to go -- no more link with your valid ID.
Sadly, this doesn't work with IRL bank accounts.
I swear, it's like dealing with stubborn sulky children around here sometimes

>Buy bitcoin with cash to buy something that you could have bought with cash in the first place, how smart is that.
Not smart at all. Oddly, you can't buy your bath salts & CP with cash from DNMs, you need bitcoins.
That's why people buy bitcoins. Duh.

>Buying drugs and guns with USD through HSBC bank
Are you telling me that since there's crime and injustice outside of bitcoins, we should let bitcoiners do khrymes because it's only fair?
What kind of broken logic is that?

[Evildrum]

You do not need Id to buy bitcoin. What you mean to say is you do not have all the available options to purchase bitcoin that others have in this forum,otherwise the point you make is invalid.

Did not realize Yobit was in Russia but now that you mention it what about Btc-E as well? Pretty sure these groups will set up outside the Country if the businesses are profitable enough. They most likely have a better grasp on the situation as well.

[Carlton Banks]

Are you telling me that since there's crime and injustice outside of bitcoins, we should let bitcoiners do khrymes because it's only fair?
What kind of broken logic is that?

Perfect logic. It's obvious you can't stop money laundering for drug traffickers or tax evasion, large corporations like HSBC are heavily involved in both and are never punished by their politician buddies. Are you telling me that we should act like neo-serfs while these neo-lords break rules with impunity? What kind of broken logic is that?

[road to morocco]

^^
>Buying bitcoin requires ID
If you bought BTC with a valid ID, you're doing it wrong. But don't worry, use any mixing service advertised on this forum, or "gamble" on any illegal interweb dice site promoted here, and you're good to go -- no more link with your valid ID.
Sadly, this doesn't work with IRL bank accounts.
I swear, it's like dealing with stubborn sulky children around here sometimes

>Buy bitcoin with cash to buy something that you could have bought with cash in the first place, how smart is that.
Not smart at all. Oddly, you can't buy buy your bath salts with cash from DNM, you need bitcoins.
That's why people buy bitcoins. Duh.

>Buying drugs and guns with USD through HSBC bank
Are you telling me that since there's crime and injustice outside of bitcoins, we should let bitcoiners do khrymes because it's only fair?
What kind of broken logic is that?

We are getting off topic.

What I am trying to say is that it is the money that internet needs.

No, it's money that *you* want the internet to need. Probably because holding a bagful.

1) It allows micropayments without visa, mastercard commission (roughly 0.35 usd +3%)

Bitcoin does not allow micropayments, it's already the leat efficient micropayment channel. what kind of a micropayment channel charges five cents to send a penny shaving? What kind of a micropayment channel can handle *3 TRANSACTIONS PER SECOND, MAXIMUM SUSTAINED"?

2) You can transfer money abroad without banks and Westernunion (20% and 30 minutes in the bank)

No. You can transfer bitcoins abroad. Then the recipient has to sell those for actual money. The trick is difficult, that's why so many remittance cos went belly up.
You need to buy shit abroad, use your international CC

3) You don't need to open any account at the bank to transfer funds (not everyone in the world has that opportunity)

So those underserved living on < $2/day have internet and computers/unlimited 4G on their iPhone contracts?

4) No central authority or government can stop you from using these benefits. (freeze your account)

Err... Right, weren't we talking about bypassing AML/KYC? Yeah, we were, and now you're listing it as one of bitcoins' advantages.

Before bitcoin there was crime, after bitcoin there will be crime. Bitcoin is not helping and not stoping it.

Well no, bitcoins is helping it, that's what we're talking about. Yes, you can do khrrymez without bitcoins, but bitcoins makes shit like ransomware and extortion a hell of a lot more practical. That's why 40% of all interweb crimez involves bitcoins

[franky1]

5 pages of rambling and it appears most people are blindly believing a crappy media story where the source is yet another crappy media source which links to another crappy source that has mis-interpretted the whole saga.

in short they want to licence it. where people are required to register and become compliant. unlicenced exchanges will receive a small fine and large business institutions will get mega fines. and if they are found directly linked to terrorism, etc. then its prison time.

the real funny thing is that russia is actually going to be using blockchain technology. so before you all blindly think that russia is against crypto currency please do your research.

but i know you wont read the real sources so lets atleast link you to your favourite shamedia, because you would probably believe them first

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/blockchain-for-banks-russian-central-bank/
http://www.coinfox.info/news/5356-v-permskom-universitete-otkrylas-laboratoriya-po-blokchejnu

[magemist]

So same thing that Venezeula has done towards bitcoin miners 
This is typical governments trying to control their citizens against free market with their own cryptocurrency.

[Nmesance]

It has nothing to do with kidnappers and criminals .... They are trying to protect their own currency {Ruble} and everyone knows that. Many other corrupt nations are doing the very same thing, because they

know people can flee the country with their capital and their wealth, if it comes down to that. Russia has been jumping from the one extreme to the other and nobody really knows what the official status of

Bitcoin is in that country. If they do ban Bitcoin, it will merely go underground and nobody will have control over that. If the goal was to stop criminal activities, they would have regulated the exchanges more,

but they not doing that, and that raise the red flag for their hidden agenda.  

What all countries fear most, something taking over their domestic currency...

[leopard2]

ridiculous

the REAL CRIMINALS are the government cronies, not just in Russia but everywhere...and they are financed by fiat money, not Bitcoin. Government is just another word for organized crime.

SO in order to fight crime, fiat money needs to be outlawed, not Bitcoin  

Of course the ruble has been in trouble lately, competition is not wanted  

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=RUBUSD%3DX+Interactive#{%22range%22:%2210y%22,%22allowChartStacking%22:true}

this, ladies and gentlemen, is the explanation...criminals printing too much fiat money, do not wish people to escape from the scam  

[electronicash]

thats bad news for the altcoin intended for the russians themselves, i remember there was one purposely made for them. they can't come out now lol
This might not stop them though, cryptocurrencies are doing very well for its the future of money and even if they jail the users people will still hide themselves and use this.

[zPanda]

The negative stigma towards BTC is horrendous!

[lumeire]

5 pages of rambling and it appears most people are blindly believing a crappy media story where the source is yet another crappy media source which links to another crappy source that has mis-interpretted the whole saga.

in short they want to licence it. where people are required to register and become compliant. unlicenced exchanges will receive a small fine and large business institutions will get mega fines. and if they are found directly linked to terrorism, etc. then its prison time.

the real funny thing is that russia is actually going to be using blockchain technology. so before you all blindly think that russia is against crypto currency please do your research.

but i know you wont read the real sources so lets atleast link you to your favourite shamedia, because you would probably believe them first

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/blockchain-for-banks-russian-central-bank/
http://www.coinfox.info/news/5356-v-permskom-universitete-otkrylas-laboratoriya-po-blokchejnu

Thanks for the quote, saved me the time reading most of the posts.

Buh Bye Yobit. You have until may 24 to remove all your coins from the exchange or kiss them goodbye forever. 

Never knew Yobit was a Russian exchange?

@ontopic Regulation is really keeping up with the bitcoin space. This was expected, makes the playing field level for the exchangers. The next thing regulators should go after are the fake volumes that's becoming a common practice among these guys.

[chiajw1]

Basjcally it is just full of crap that the law will be efficient in combating crime. The whole thing is pseudonymous and no one knows the other party without really tracing it from third party service like exchanges.

To Russian Government you are too naive to think that banning Bitcoin usage will stop criminals. Be it a criminal or a civillian who wanted to adobt bitcoin, it is very easy to hide but hard to trace. Regulating just makes the bitcoin skyrocket. One word for you, Fuck you Stupid Russian Government

[interbtc]

Buh Bye Yobit. You have until may 24 to remove all your coins from the exchange or kiss them goodbye forever. 

I see that they have RU as option for language, but i didnt know that they were based in Russia - where did you find this info ?
Another exchange that could be affected by this is btc-e , but its not really known about location of that exchange either.
If i'm not mistaken, they could just move their servers to another country, therefore avoiding any legal issues. Their law isn't valid outside of land borders.

[Jasad]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-28/russian-law-would-send-bitcoin-users-to-jail-as-cybercriminals

Russia is planning to punish users of cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin, saying anonymous, difficult to trace transactions help kidnappers and money launderers.

The Finance Ministry in Moscow plans to submit legislation next month that would punish those who use digital currencies with fines as high as 2.5 million rubles ($38,000) and jail sentences of up to seven years. As opponents criticize such regulations as futile in the face of the growing popularity of bitcoin, Russia joins countries including Bolivia, Iceland and Vietnam in taking steps to criminalize it.

“Bitcoin can be used to finance the shadow economy and crimes, and this risk we cannot allow in the Russia’s financial system, which we are striving to make transparent and healthy,” the press service of the central bank said in an e-mail.

bad plan,its really bad,not just bad for russian bitcoiner and bitcoiner all around the world,but its bad for russia its elf,that plan will make people have negative think about russia,and sure some people more hate that country.

[Carlton Banks]

Blame the government ministers signing this off IMO, not the whole country. I'd love to visit Russia one day, not too sure about that when I hear these kind of stories, but it's probably just the typical sort of political Wrestlemania that's beginning to be seen more overtly in the Western world.

[road to morocco]

...

1) It allows micropayments without visa, mastercard commission (roughly 0.35 usd +3%)

Bitcoin does not allow micropayments, it's already the leat efficient micropayment channel. what kind of a micropayment channel charges five cents to send a penny shaving? What kind of a micropayment channel can handle *3 TRANSACTIONS PER SECOND, MAXIMUM SUSTAINED"?

Right now Bitcoin handles 5 per second and it will scale just like the internet scaled from 56kb modems at home to 100MB modems, remember? When we had 56kb, there was no youtube and 100MB would be an excess. Same goes here, when we will need 100 transactions per second, then there will be 100 per second.

Ok lets compare visa payments micro and macro (i don't see any positive sides for visa):

Visa:     0.5 USD + 0.35 + 0.01 = 0.86
Bitcoin: 0.5 USD + 0.03 = 0.53

The positive side of Visa is that it *could* handle nontrivial number of micropayments, while Bitcoin couldn't.
Being able to do a job vs. not being able to do it is considered a plus IRL

3tps sustained (or 5, or 7 peak, won't quibble) is simply not enough. This is what Bitcoin is capable of now. Not a question of modem speeds, simply how many transactions could be reliably included in a 1MB block. Saying "when we will need 100 transactions per second, then there will be 100 per second" is ridiculous -- that's what the whole scaling/blocksize debate is about, the thing that made Mike Hearn, Bitcoin's ex-lead programmer, say that Bitcoin is a failed experiment & quit

There are currently two lines of thought re. scaling: Classic and Core.

Classic team is proposing a temporary fix: double the blocksize limit now, doubling the number of transactions currently possible. This would work, but has (justifiably) been called "kicking the can down the road" -- 7 (or 14) transactions per second is still laughably small for a serious payment channel.
For perspective:
"In 2010, Visa was handling on average around 2,000 transactions a second, with a daily peak rate of 5,000 transactions a second. During busiest season of the year it peaked to 11,000 transactions a second (Dec 23)1. In 2010 they had burst capacity of 24,000 transaction per second with no degradation of transaction quality."
And, of course, scaling Visa is trivial -- add moar data centers.

Core team feels that Bitcoin couldn't (and shouldn't) scale. Instead, they're banking on another network -- the Lightning Network, being built *on top* of Bitcoin.
Then, people could start transacting on Lightning Network, relegating Bitcoin to being a settlement layer.

Of course, this is a clumsy solution for many reasons, not the least of which is this: Lightning works like a gift card, not cash.

Before Alice can buy a cup of coffee from Bob via Lightning, Alice must decide how many cups she is likely to buy from Bob in the foreseeable future, and pay for those all those cups. Like buying a gift card. Alice would have to  create such payment channels buy such gift cards from every person or business she pays via the Lightning Network.
TL;DR: While a credit card lends you a sum of money (for free) to buy stuff & sends you a bill at the end of the month, Lightning will make you pay that bill in advance, *before* you could spend a penny of it. No thanks.
But you're right, this is getting way off topic & too many tangents. If you feel like moving this to some other thread, PM me and I'll follow

Edit re. 40%: Sorry, my mistake, it's "Europol said that, according to its data, bitcoin accounts for as much as 40% of criminal-to-criminal payments online" http://www.coindesk.com/europol-bitcoin-european-cybercriminals/
Still, quite a slice, considering the number of BTC transactions vs. ...oh, PayPal transactions (which account for only 25%)

[avikz]

No wonder! Russia has a fascist government and they simply don't allow people to have free money. They simply believe that power should belong only to government. Thank God they are not a part of EU.

My sincere condolence to all the russian bitcoin users.