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Author Topic: Email from Avalon  (Read 6227 times)
philipma1957
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May 03, 2016, 08:36:04 PM
 #41

Basically the asic builders have a lot of leverage over the game.

That's actually an interesting concept - we actually don't know what control they have over their own company. Consider BTCS' string pulling over Spondoolies and that we only know about it in detail because BTCS is a public company. Bitfury similarly has significant VC investment and its likely that that investment comes with control.

We don't know if the V's actually get to decide to release a generation or not and its not unreasonable to consider that the investors may usurp giving away their very expensive chip for little.

Good point for all we know bitmaintech could be 100% controlled  by Chinese government or investors.


So while it looks like asic builders are doing their thing so to speak it is not really the case.

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dogie
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May 03, 2016, 08:42:43 PM
 #42

Good point for all we know bitmaintech could be 100% controlled  by Chinese government or investors.

Well... I do and that's not as true. They raised they money day 1 and it was a reasonable amount of money, and then make the majority of their 'resources' from trading.

toptek (OP)
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May 03, 2016, 09:15:07 PM
 #43

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control

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philipma1957
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May 03, 2016, 09:35:37 PM
 #44

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control



On the other side of the coin.

I grew up in New York City.

I knew of people that owned entire City blocks of Queens and Brooklyn all via a handshake.

 All government  documents did not mention the handshake owners.


So the real power for asic  can be in spots no one would really know,unless of course they are the actual holder of the real power.

If Putin sent someone to talk things over with bitfury and wanted an off the record deal with them it would happen.
If Bush/Cheney wanted a off the record deal in the USA with some company it would happen.
If the leader of China anted an off the record deal in China with some company it would happen.


Ghost ops flow in both  directions .  So the real power is hidden.

But on the surface  our game looks like asic builders.






  So I would prefer someone figuring out how to program a gpu to whale at silly good numbers mining BTC  as I rather use gear from real companies.

I don't like alt coins but I see what eth coin does  and I can see that  a good gpu coin could always exist. 

The eth coin market cap is about 700 million  the btc market cap is about 6300 million.   

 Does not take much to see a fundamental issue for asic builders vs gpu builders.

Asic builders attitude to buyers is pretty much fuck you show me the money.

Gpu builders  give service and warranties that are real.  Just a little tip and btc could slide while eth coin jumps.

The security issue is pretty much equal.

   We never had an alt coin go to numbers like   .1 btc per coin  the ½ ing could do this or not.

I  Will be watching and waiting for gear from avalon.  I also tell them sell us chips  believe it or not it is a safer way to earn money for your company.

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 MΞTAWIN  THE FIRST WEB3 CASINO   
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.. PLAY NOW ..
PassThePopcorn
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May 03, 2016, 09:38:53 PM
 #45

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control
It doesn't take much to get a visa, and even then you can for the most part go wherever you'd like within reason as long as you adhere to the visa terms, basically the length of stay and number of entries into the country.

To get a visa you usually just need a reason to go, having a ticket or a tour is usually a good enough reason for one to be issued, but there are companies that you can pay and they will arrange all the paperwork for other types of visa's with less restrictions (ie more entries)
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May 03, 2016, 11:56:58 PM
 #46

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control
It doesn't take much to get a visa, and even then you can for the most part go wherever you'd like within reason as long as you adhere to the visa terms, basically the length of stay and number of entries into the country.

To get a visa you usually just need a reason to go, having a ticket or a tour is usually a good enough reason for one to be issued, but there are companies that you can pay and they will arrange all the paperwork for other types of visa's with less restrictions (ie more entries)

Let me tell you, its far, far, far more difficult to get a US visa (for anything other than tourism) than it is for China.

PassThePopcorn
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May 04, 2016, 12:12:35 AM
 #47

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control
It doesn't take much to get a visa, and even then you can for the most part go wherever you'd like within reason as long as you adhere to the visa terms, basically the length of stay and number of entries into the country.

To get a visa you usually just need a reason to go, having a ticket or a tour is usually a good enough reason for one to be issued, but there are companies that you can pay and they will arrange all the paperwork for other types of visa's with less restrictions (ie more entries)

Let me tell you, its far, far, far more difficult to get a US visa (for anything other than tourism) than it is for China.
Oh yeah it's much harder if you need to get a US visa as in to come to the US. It only took me a week and a half to get a business visa to go to China and about $400.
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May 04, 2016, 01:57:29 AM
 #48

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control
It doesn't take much to get a visa, and even then you can for the most part go wherever you'd like within reason as long as you adhere to the visa terms, basically the length of stay and number of entries into the country.

To get a visa you usually just need a reason to go, having a ticket or a tour is usually a good enough reason for one to be issued, but there are companies that you can pay and they will arrange all the paperwork for other types of visa's with less restrictions (ie more entries)

Let me tell you, its far, far, far more difficult to get a US visa (for anything other than tourism) than it is for China.
Oh yeah it's much harder if you need to get a US visa as in to come to the US. It only took me a week and a half to get a business visa to go to China and about $400.

I ended up not needing one and did not go there.  But when looking China had one that offered 10 years.  So you can also get a pretty good length of time if you had proper reason.  I was surprised personal they offered one for such a long period of time.
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May 07, 2016, 09:35:35 AM
Last edit: May 07, 2016, 04:23:32 PM by sloopy
 #49

but don't they need permission to do that stuff in china  i hear it's bitch to tour there all the bs they put you thu for a visa etc and then you just can't go any place you want to, so i wouldn't put past them being controlled by gov .Ive often wonder how much the gov is in control



On the other side of the coin.

I grew up in New York City.

I knew of people that owned entire City blocks of Queens and Brooklyn all via a handshake.

 All government  documents did not mention the handshake owners.


So the real power for asic  can be in spots no one would really know,unless of course they are the actual holder of the real power.

If Putin sent someone to talk things over with bitfury and wanted an off the record deal with them it would happen.
If Bush/Cheney wanted a off the record deal in the USA with some company it would happen.
If the leader of China anted an off the record deal in China with some company it would happen.


Ghost ops flow in both  directions .  So the real power is hidden.

But on the surface  our game looks like asic builders.






  So I would prefer someone figuring out how to program a gpu to whale at silly good numbers mining BTC  as I rather use gear from real companies.

I don't like alt coins but I see what eth coin does  and I can see that  a good gpu coin could always exist.  

The eth coin market cap is about 700 million  the btc market cap is about 6300 million.  

 Does not take much to see a fundamental issue for asic builders vs gpu builders.

Asic builders attitude to buyers is pretty much fuck you show me the money.

Gpu builders  give service and warranties that are real.  Just a little tip and btc could slide while eth coin jumps.

The security issue is pretty much equal.

   We never had an alt coin go to numbers like   .1 btc per coin  the ½ ing could do this or not.

I  Will be watching and waiting for gear from avalon.  I also tell them sell us chips  believe it or not it is a safer way to earn money for your company.


I think most are hodling and waiting at this point for nextgen. Although I am also sure some people are picking up the odd good deal S7 and a6. Personally I and others have mentioned the stale air accumulating around the control board in the A6, but that is easily addressed.  

I had fantastic support from Spondoolies and wish they were building something competitive for a home miner. 110 TH is too many eggs in one basket and I do not see them giving us anything smaller with BTCS in need of as many which can be built and shipped. This is pure conjecture on my part except for the above average support, but it isn't hard to be above average when the competition was Bitmain.

Having said that I do see effort being made to use your regional support, I have purchased miners through the Bitmain regional guys in Colorado.
The last time I checked pricing it was extremely nice to purchase a new miner through Yoshi's group, get fast support communication, but... There was still a delay in actually having the miner shipped along with having a repaired unit shipped. Actual shipping time was fantastic, but even though the unit was very obviously here in the US there was still some hangup between my BTC being sent within a few hours, and the unit shipping.

...and Having said that, Yoshi stood behind good customer service, apologized for the delays, and I will not go in detail, but he took care of me.

However, I am interested in a bulk purchase and my overall experiences since the first miner I purchased from Bitmain, the S4s hurt like hell because of Bitmain customer service, the batch 1 S7s, even though they gave compensation the people who received theirs before the Holiday had a significant advantage. I had a very bad taste in my mouth after spending 9+ BTC for my first S5+, the fan die within a week and the factory telling me SOP is to buy your own fan locally. Other Bitmain employees told me I may as well do the same thing. Again Yoshi took care of me. I bought a spare at that time as well.
Yoshi has been the consistent reason I went back, and when I make my first real bulk purchase, it will not come down to who hits the market with the most efficient gear first, it will be the choices available to me based on past experiences.

I still haven't wrapped my head around why Bitmain has not set up a true factory leg in the US including assembly. What a jump it would give them to have a US team able to support and sell here. I understand they would lose some profit margin due to labor, but I firmly believe that it would be made back quickly with volume AND they could offer next day air service for people who want to pay it. Bulk orders could go out Fedex freight or an equivalent.
I guarantee they would sell many more spare parts. Look at how much shipping is added for each additional part from the website now. That has been the sole reason I have not already picked up several hundred dollars worth of spares.

They could also sell hash boards. Simply have larger runs made. Look at the people who would pick up multiple boards so they could build their own unique designs. People like me would purchase a hash board even if I had a warranty board going back in to be replaced to reduce downtime.

As was mentioned if BlockC approaches these things, lowers the MOQ to 1 for the small miner, and allows each individual part to be purchased I see a real fight starting.

The same potentials exist for other companies of they stop talking vaporware and actually make a move.

Of course I am sure there are many items I am not seeing, but I cannot understand why making your brand is not the long term goal.

Transaction fees go to the pools and the pools decide to pay them to the miners. Anything else, including off-chain solutions are stealing and not the way Bitcoin was intended to function.
Make the block size set by the pool. Pool = miners and they get the choice.
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May 07, 2016, 02:51:24 PM
 #50

Sloopy,
Thanks for your post, very well written and makes perfect sense.
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May 07, 2016, 03:08:52 PM
 #51

I still haven't wrapped my head around why Bitmain has not set up a true factory leg in the US including assembly.
For the same reason Spondoolies couldn't compete on price, its just too expensive. If they wanted a US facility they'd continue what they had before and make them in CN then ship them over in bulk.

What a jump it would give them to have a US team able to support and sell here. I understand they would lose some profit margin due to labor, but I firmly believe that it would be made back quickly with volume AND they could offer next day air service for people who want to pay it.
They already enjoy 2 day air shipping to most of the world and would need a farm in the US (expensive), so without a significant bump in price to pay for these niceties its never going to happen.

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May 07, 2016, 04:50:45 PM
 #52

Sloopy,
Thanks for your post, very well written and makes perfect sense.

Thanks. I appreciate the kind words.

Re-reading it in the light of day there was one main point I wanted to make in this thread which I did not.

Is it just me? (and it wouldn't be the first time), but seriously is it just me who looks back on the way the Avalon 6 versus S7 pricing structure and MOQ were lined up seemed to coexist well?
Similar to how AT&T and COX / Time Warner may coexist and both do extremely well?

Maybe I missed it, but I purchased an A6 much later than others and paid well over what the S7 cost. I did this knowingly. The same way I pay my bill for Internet and Cable TV every month. (Never watch the cable TV)

I wonder who gets the credit for those things aligning so perfectly?
Bitmain maintained the lower price. Many times to the point it was not a good decision to do anything else. *IF* you had reasonable confidence the hash boards or the entire unit wouldn't need to go back. So a gamble on top of your BTC mining / price gamble, just add that layer on top.

I do not mean to snub either company. Good Business decisions. Actually, so smooth it is almost a concerted effort to maximize profit and keep the price at $750 - $1100 for a long time between November / December and March / April.



Regarding making them in CN and shipping them in bulk they are still doing that today, they just do it through Yoshi. Very little difference. I am talking about a true extension where there is true assembly. That seems to be the only way to have every single part available in a next day air fashion.
Does anyone have any numbers showing where what percentage of miners are sold to which countries? Obviously China is #1.

These "niceties" are what make a huge difference in many people's purchasing decision come true competition, and why so many people support the community miner project. These "niceties" are what will separate people who have a job and people replaced with automation or they have no market share in the decades of Industry to come. China is growing in the middle class, and they will demand higher wages, there will be a change there. It may be 20 years, but it has already started.
The simple fact is you get what you pay for and I can show plenty of people who have parts made all over the world but assemble and test the product in the US (or their home country). Are there shitty companies in the US? Sure. Does it take weeks to get a replacement part? Not if they want to sell another item and shitty companies do not stay in business unless they are monopolies or government funded.

They may "enjoy" two day shipping of new units to some places, but who has been getting their unit repaired, who has been getting a fan replaced in a reasonable time? Who has received a hash board in two days? HUGE difference.
Do you understand now dog? If not, just forget it and move on trying to bait someone else or get back to loansharking.


Transaction fees go to the pools and the pools decide to pay them to the miners. Anything else, including off-chain solutions are stealing and not the way Bitcoin was intended to function.
Make the block size set by the pool. Pool = miners and they get the choice.
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May 07, 2016, 05:20:02 PM
 #53

The simple fact is you get what you pay for
And as mining history has shown us, people aren't willing to pay a price premium for frills when there is raw hashpower available elsewhere cheaper.

move on trying to bait someone else
Can you have an adult discussion for once, please.

or get back to loansharking.
Huh

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May 07, 2016, 05:39:49 PM
 #54

The simple fact is you get what you pay for
And as mining history has shown us, people aren't willing to pay a price premium for frills when there is raw hashpower available elsewhere cheaper.

Except for everything Spondoolies ever sold.

Cool, quiet and up to 1TH pod miner, on sale now!
Currently in development - 200+GH USB stick; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
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May 07, 2016, 05:53:18 PM
 #55

The simple fact is you get what you pay for
And as mining history has shown us, people aren't willing to pay a price premium for frills when there is raw hashpower available elsewhere cheaper.

Except for everything Spondoolies ever sold.

The SP10 won by efficiency and density, not by frills. The SP3Xs won by preorders, not by frills. The SP20s 'won' by being sold at a huge loss, while also not being very good.

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May 07, 2016, 06:04:11 PM
 #56

So you wouldn't consider the slick rackmountability, total adjustability, integrated server PSUs, spiffy UI and everything else Spondoolies did (and charged a premium for, then sold truckloads of) that Bitmain doesn't to be "frills"? Please, define "frills".

Cool, quiet and up to 1TH pod miner, on sale now!
Currently in development - 200+GH USB stick; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
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May 07, 2016, 08:01:21 PM
 #57

So you wouldn't consider the slick rackmountability, total adjustability, integrated server PSUs, spiffy UI and everything else Spondoolies did (and charged a premium for, then sold truckloads of) that Bitmain doesn't to be "frills"? Please, define "frills".

$/GH/s and W/GH/s matters to Bitcoin Miners. The fact that Bitmain is thriving and Spondoolies-tech died is confirmation.
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May 07, 2016, 10:05:55 PM
 #58

So you wouldn't consider the slick rackmountability, total adjustability, integrated server PSUs, spiffy UI and everything else Spondoolies did (and charged a premium for, then sold truckloads of) that Bitmain doesn't to be "frills"? Please, define "frills".

$/GH/s and W/GH/s matters to Bitcoin Miners. The fact that Bitmain is thriving and Spondoolies-tech died is confirmation.
Spondoolies-tech died because of mismanagement, not because their miners were to costly.  Selling the company to BTCS is and will be their demise.
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May 08, 2016, 12:37:41 AM
 #59

So you wouldn't consider the slick rackmountability, total adjustability, integrated server PSUs, spiffy UI and everything else Spondoolies did (and charged a premium for, then sold truckloads of) that Bitmain doesn't to be "frills"? Please, define "frills".

$/GH/s and W/GH/s matters to Bitcoin Miners. The fact that Bitmain is thriving and Spondoolies-tech died is confirmation.
Spondoolies-tech died because of mismanagement, not because their miners were to costly.  Selling the company to BTCS is and will be their demise.

Well it was part in cost, as they tried to compete with bitmain and claim they sold them at a loss.  Which obviously does not work good.    I think it is true they just could not compete.

Now you could argue management to.  But price was a factor for sure to.
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May 08, 2016, 04:13:55 AM
 #60

So you wouldn't consider the slick rackmountability, total adjustability, integrated server PSUs, spiffy UI and everything else Spondoolies did (and charged a premium for, then sold truckloads of) that Bitmain doesn't to be "frills"? Please, define "frills".

I would not consider it successful, no. The buyer has to pay for those frills, and unfortunately Spondoolies wasn't able to recoup those costs and still be able to sell units. As scyth3 suggested, no frills won over frills.

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