Bitcoin needs to move to POS. Thoughts?

[Soul_eater_123]

I know it sounds like heresy and I know this is a bit cheeky but I think Bitcoin should move to POS (proof of stake) for mining rather than POW (proof of work).

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining - I think many of us have seen the recent bad press in this regard and it is only going to get worse. 

It would also allow mining on much lower level hardware and might reduce the pressure to sell (from miners who have to cover costs).

I certainly think it is an interesting thought experiment for discussion regarding the pros and cons.

[mightyghz]

PoS when 21 000 000 bitcoins are already mined

[Soul_eater_123]

PoS when 21 000 000 bitcoins are already mined

Unfortunately that's more than 100 years away so that doesn't really help with the energy use.

[alani123]

Bitcoin is what it is largely because of mining. Switching to POS would be disasterous.

[Soul_eater_123]

Bitcoin is what it is largely because of mining. Switching to POS would be disasterous.

That's what I used to think but I'm not so sure now.  What does mining provide that POS wouldn't?

[alani123]

Bitcoin is what it is largely because of mining. Switching to POS would be disasterous.

That's what I used to think but I'm not so sure now.  What does mining provide that POS wouldn't?

The fact that obtaining a machine capable to mine the currency costs money and isn't accessible to anyone adds value to it in and of itself. Removing this attribute of bitcoin could take away a big part of the economy that has formed around it and cause massive loss of interest.

[Soul_eater_123]

Bitcoin is what it is largely because of mining. Switching to POS would be disasterous.

That's what I used to think but I'm not so sure now.  What does mining provide that POS wouldn't?

The fact that obtaining a machine capable to mine the currency costs money and isn't accessible to anyone adds value to it in and of itself. Removing this attribute of bitcoin could take away a big part of the economy that has formed around it and cause massive loss of interest.

I disagree.  It is the scarcity of bitcoin that (and the fact that it was the first cryptocurrency) that gives it value. POS would not change that.

[Carlton Banks]

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining

explain the nature of this so-called "waste". I'm going to give you a head-start: you can't

[QuestionQuest]

I know it sounds like heresy and I know this is a bit cheeky but I think Bitcoin should move to POS (proof of stake) for mining rather than POW (proof of work).

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining - I think many of us have seen the recent bad press in this regard and it is only going to get worse.  

It would also allow mining on much lower level hardware and might reduce the pressure to sell (from miners who have to cover costs).

I certainly think it is an interesting thought experiment for discussion regarding the pros and cons.

The point you mentioned is 100% right, but not possible at the moment.
If you would destroy the mining like its at this point, you would destroy the economy.

A lot of mining people had loosings (hardware, power etc.).
A lot of people are thinking a mining farm can make them rich.
A lot of people are paying real money to get some bitcoin - to start the "BIG BUSINESS" ...  

But those people are really important. They are like gas/fuel for a car.
For now we need them and it will regulate slow by itself. Then we can switch POS to POW.

See Peercoin. Did they really win?
At the momet Bitcoin is too important in the changes on the financial sector and changing how things are working.
I concide to 100% with your thinking and it would be great to see it working - better yesterday then tomorrow.

But for now I feel better with:
- Dont touch it!  
or
- Never touch a running system 

[Soul_eater_123]

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining

explain the nature of this so-called "waste". I'm going to give you a head-start: you can't

I can.  POS would require less energy therefore POW is wasting energy. Simple enough.

[QuestionQuest]

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining

explain the nature of this so-called "waste". I'm going to give you a head-start: you can't

I can.  POS would require less energy therefore POW is wasting energy. Simple enough.

You cannot save time if you stop your clock 
--- but you can try to run a little bit faster every day 

[Soul_eater_123]

yt654
The point you mentioned is 100% right, but not possible at the moment.
If you would destroy the mining like its at this point, you would destroy the economy.

A lot of mining people had loosings (hardware, power etc.).
A lot of people are thinking a mining farm can make them rich.
A lot of people are paying real money to get some bitcoin - to start the "BIG BUSINESS" ...  

But those people are really important. They are like gas/fuel for a car.
For now we need them and it will regulate slow by itself. Then we can switch POS to POW.

See Peercoin. Did they really win?
At the momet Bitcoin is too important in the changes on the financial sector and changing how things are working.
I concide to 100% with your thinking and it would be great to see it working - better yesterday then tomorrow.

But for now I feel better with:
- Dont touch it!  
or
- Never touch a running system 

Thank you for your thoughtful points.  I understand your concerns and but I think that it may actually be easier and less damaging to switch to POS now when BTC isn't really mainstream.  Once it does get much bigger it will be much more difficult to make the change.  I think the people who were in favour of an increase in block size have also made the same point.  A change later will be more painful for the whole community.

I agree that Peercoin didn't really go very far but I think Bitcoin has such momentum that you can't really compare the two.

[Carlton Banks]

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining

explain the nature of this so-called "waste". I'm going to give you a head-start: you can't

I can.  POS would require less energy therefore POW is wasting energy. Simple enough.

Sadly, you were incapable of a meaningful explanation, as I suspected. The problem is that POS cannot achieve the quality of security that POW can, so your comparison isn't meaningful. That's why this design is the successful one: it works, lol (and hence why POS failed as a technology)

[QuestionQuest]

yt654
The point you mentioned is 100% right, but not possible at the moment.
If you would destroy the mining like its at this point, you would destroy the economy.

A lot of mining people had loosings (hardware, power etc.).
A lot of people are thinking a mining farm can make them rich.
A lot of people are paying real money to get some bitcoin - to start the "BIG BUSINESS" ...  

But those people are really important. They are like gas/fuel for a car.
For now we need them and it will regulate slow by itself. Then we can switch POS to POW.

See Peercoin. Did they really win?
At the momet Bitcoin is too important in the changes on the financial sector and changing how things are working.
I concide to 100% with your thinking and it would be great to see it working - better yesterday then tomorrow.

But for now I feel better with:
- Dont touch it!  
or
- Never touch a running system  

Thank you for your thoughtful points.  I understand your concerns and but I think that it may actually be easier and less damaging to switch to POS now when BTC isn't really mainstream.  Once it does get much bigger it will be much more difficult to make the change.  I think the people who were in favour of an increase in block size have also made the same point.  A change later will be more painful for the whole community.

I agree that Peercoin didn't really go very far but I think Bitcoin has such momentum that you can't really compare the two.

Mining will get unprofitable in some years or it will get stucked.
At this point switching is almost no risk.
Chip production (2017/2018) is down to 7nm but this will almost the end of the bottle neck.
With a big maybe 5nm.

A quantum computer could solve it (and maybe solve the whole bitcoin chain in milliseconds).
But who has one? I will buy it for 10 bitcoin  

Switching will be necessary - maybe earlier then we think, but right now not.
BitPay spreaded the Bitcoin under the seller.
Now Bitcoin first needs more spread for buyer and the normal consumer.

[Soul_eater_123]

Sadly, you were incapable of a meaningful explanation, as I suspected. The problem is that POS cannot achieve the quality of security that POW can, so your comparison isn't meaningful. That's why this design is the successful one: it works, lol

Well since you are such a genius I'm happy for you to explain why POS is less secure than POW;)

[QuestionQuest]

Sadly, you were incapable of a meaningful explanation, as I suspected. The problem is that POS cannot achieve the quality of security that POW can, so your comparison isn't meaningful. That's why this design is the successful one: it works, lol

Well since you are such a genius I'm happy for you to explain why POS is less secure than POW;)

Already did in my first post in here. (see up up up)
That one you already quoted.

[Soul_eater_123]

Sadly, you were incapable of a meaningful explanation, as I suspected. The problem is that POS cannot achieve the quality of security that POW can, so your comparison isn't meaningful. That's why this design is the successful one: it works, lol

Well since you are such a genius I'm happy for you to explain why POS is less secure than POW;)

Already did in my first post in here. (see up up up)
That one you already quoted.

Lol I was talking to Carlton Banks but I'm not sure what you're referring to. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[QuestionQuest]

I think that there are a number of reasons this would be beneficial but the main one would be a reduction in the huge amount of energy wasted in mining

explain the nature of this so-called "waste". I'm going to give you a head-start: you can't

I can.  POS would require less energy therefore POW is wasting energy. Simple enough.

Sadly, you were incapable of a meaningful explanation, as I suspected. The problem is that POS cannot achieve the quality of security that POW can, so your comparison isn't meaningful. That's why this design is the successful one: it works, lol (and hence why POS failed as a technology)

I know you are talking to banks - or my answer would not be friendly anymore
But I like the point you think of, but I think the way is not the right (hard switch)
Bitcoin was the new idea - maybe we need something new again (within bitcoin)

So we would need a mix from POS and POW maybe.
Solving "puzzles" is ok - but why not solve a puzzle like Boinc is offering.
YEAH - I AM YETI @Home - and I help SETI@Home

So fill up the POW with sencefull things may help. It would be not a waste of power anymore.
Curecoin for example is for cancer research.
A pitty BOINC has no COIN - but its 100% science related and I think the oldest system in this public way I know (Seti @Home was my first software like this --- uhhm --- 20 years ago)
And now Seti is a small BOINC one
And there is always enough to calclulate - even all ASICs and GPU on the world could not solve all REAL puzzles of mankind.

You can rent supercomputer power at almost any big research facility for real big money. Why?
They dont need power over a day. They need it most time FAST for a SHORT TIME with MAX POWER. (emergency results, weather results, results of ill people and and and ...)
And big research companies, goverments and hospitals are buying those power.
ofc they are not using a normal pc or server for clustering - you could say they are like ASICs for the science people and always for special coding.
Not even one normal software you and I know are working on it - not yet
And an ASIC, well --- looks not like I could use it for anything else.

I had the luck to see such a big cluster from inside and it is amazing!
Not to compare with even a big normal datacenter. Racks, too - but anything else was a new fantastic world
I am invited to see it again in 2 years and I will go again. I have so many new questions  

---

Under the line. Lets calculate something important and we all feel better with bitcoin. Having them in the own wallet and doing something good while using (and mining) them

[Soul_eater_123]

I know you are talking to banks - or my answer would not be friendly anymore
But I like the point you think of, but I think the way is not the right (hard switch)
Bitcoin was the new idea - maybe we need something new again (within bitcoin)

So we would need a mix from POS and POW maybe.
Solving "puzzles" is ok - but why not solve a puzzle like Boinc is offering.
YEAH - I AM YETI @Home - and I help SETI@Home

So fill up the POW with sencefull things may help. It would be not a waste of power anymore.
Curecoin for example is for cancer research.
A pitty BOINC has no COIN - but its 100% science related and I think the oldest system in this public way I know (Seti @Home was my first software like this --- uhhm --- 20 years ago)
And there is always enough to calclulate - even all ASICs and GPU on the world could not solve all REAL puzzles of mankind.

You can rent supercomputer power at almost any big research facility for real big money. Why?
They dont need power over a day. They need it most time FAST for a SHORT TIME with MAX POWER.
And big research companies, goverments and hospitals are buying those power.
ofc they are not using a normal pc or server for clustering - you could say they are like ASICs for the science people and always for special coding.
Not even one normal software you and I know are working on it - not yet
And an ASIC, well --- looks not like I could use it for anything else.

I had the luck to see such a big cluster from inside and it is amazing!
Not to compare with even a big normal datacenter. Racks, too - but anything else was a new fantastic world
I am invited to see it again in 2 years and I will go again. I have so many new questions  

---

Under the line. Lets calculate something important and we all feel better with bitcoin. Having them in the own wallet and doing something good while using (and mining) them

That is another good idea.  I also actually mined with BOINC and CURECOIN too.  The problem is it hasn't worked (at least not yet in terms of catching on to a big degree with those cryptos but SETI@home was huge for a while). 

I suppose this would be POW where the work was more than just securing the network.  Is there a specific name for this type of POW? 

Anyway thanks for contributing it was my intention to have a friendly discussion.  I'm not saying I'm definitely right I'm just interested in exploring these ideas:)

[QuestionQuest]

I know you are talking to banks - or my answer would not be friendly anymore
But I like the point you think of, but I think the way is not the right (hard switch)
Bitcoin was the new idea - maybe we need something new again (within bitcoin)

So we would need a mix from POS and POW maybe.
Solving "puzzles" is ok - but why not solve a puzzle like Boinc is offering.
YEAH - I AM YETI @Home - and I help SETI@Home

So fill up the POW with sencefull things may help. It would be not a waste of power anymore.
Curecoin for example is for cancer research.
A pitty BOINC has no COIN - but its 100% science related and I think the oldest system in this public way I know (Seti @Home was my first software like this --- uhhm --- 20 years ago)
And there is always enough to calclulate - even all ASICs and GPU on the world could not solve all REAL puzzles of mankind.

You can rent supercomputer power at almost any big research facility for real big money. Why?
They dont need power over a day. They need it most time FAST for a SHORT TIME with MAX POWER.
And big research companies, goverments and hospitals are buying those power.
ofc they are not using a normal pc or server for clustering - you could say they are like ASICs for the science people and always for special coding.
Not even one normal software you and I know are working on it - not yet
And an ASIC, well --- looks not like I could use it for anything else.

I had the luck to see such a big cluster from inside and it is amazing!
Not to compare with even a big normal datacenter. Racks, too - but anything else was a new fantastic world
I am invited to see it again in 2 years and I will go again. I have so many new questions  

---

Under the line. Lets calculate something important and we all feel better with bitcoin. Having them in the own wallet and doing something good while using (and mining) them

That is another good idea.  I also actually mined with BOINC and CURECOIN too.  The problem is it hasn't worked (at least not yet in terms of catching on to a big degree with those cryptos but SETI@home was huge for a while).  

I suppose this would be POW where the work was more than just securing the network.  Is there a specific name for this type of POW?  

Anyway thanks for contributing it was my intention to have a friendly discussion.  I'm not saying I'm definitely right I'm just interested in exploring these ideas:)

Maybe ROD -> ResearchOnDemand  

If there is no name for it I vote for ROD