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Author Topic: 420's Non-Ponzi Loans & LiteCoin Options (Lend to me, or Get a loan, Calls/Puts)  (Read 20282 times)
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February 23, 2013, 05:14:36 PM
 #21

It's more than feasible that 420 can make these sort of payouts if in to the right investments and knows how to navigate them properly.

Ah there we go again. Heard it all before. Let me guess, you werent around when Pirate was, were you? Or Hashking ? Or Patrickharnett? Or Dank? Or any of the other financial masterminds that could make such enormous profits without risk.
 
Here is the thing though; anyone knowing of a bullet proof way to earn those kinds of returns (and the potential BTC gains on top of that)  would be filthy rich and not in need of any loans here. Particularly not at sharkloan interest rates.

Not that those mREITs seem all that bulletproof:
https://www.google.com/finance?cid=662081
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February 23, 2013, 07:33:31 PM
 #22

No, I was not here for any of that, but I do understand how one can make huge gains on trades if executed correctly. 420 has never said it'd be risk free for himself. He's also not taking the money of anyone who wants to sign up. I believe the dude has at least the level of knowledge in trading that I myself do, if not a bit more. As long as you don't bite off more than you can chew (pay back), then adding to the balance sheet what you can trade still makes since. I've already pointed out why this repayment structure is better than a bank loan. I've also pointed out that I myself have had an investment return over 300% in one year.

I also have an open position in BAC that cost me $8000 for a $10/$15 JAN15 call spread. If this trade works out as expected, at expiration it will have a final value of $25000. Now, subtract out my $8000 initial investment, and that leaves you with $17000 profit in two years time. That's over 100% ROI per calendar year. And that's just trading long-dated options.

If one understands short-term options trading and is willing to take on additional risk, then even greater gains can be expected. I just had a SDRL bull put spread expire worthless (which was good for me) on 2/15 that involved very little risk (in my opinion due to my faith in SDRL), and it was a one month contract. I've done almost the exact same trade two months in a row (different strikes for the two months), and it hasn't bitten me in the ass yet. 420 could replicate these easy/low-risk trades and almost cover my interest payments just from them.

My trade was:
Buy 27 FEB13 $36 Puts for $371.71
Sell 27 FEB13 $37 Puts for $465.27
Both expired worthless, leaving me with a profit of $93.56 in 30 days. That's 3.465% interest on my $2700 investment for a low risk trade.

So scream at the walls all you guys want, in the world of options and futures, huge gains can be made if you make the right investment choices. The key is to know what you're investing in and not just blindly pick a security and trade it. I don't see or smell a scam here. It's my money on the line, so we'll end up seeing. I have $1500 split between two guys on the board right now, both which I expect will come in full plus interest.

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February 23, 2013, 11:37:24 PM
 #23

. The key is to know what you're investing in

I would agree with that. And if you hand over your coins to 420, do you have any frigging clue what you are investing in?
Nope.
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February 23, 2013, 11:51:12 PM
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No, I was not here for any of that, but I do understand how one can make huge gains on trades if executed correctly. 420 has never said it'd be risk free for himself. He's also not taking the money of anyone who wants to sign up. I believe the dude has at least the level of knowledge in trading that I myself do, if not a bit more. As long as you don't bite off more than you can chew (pay back), then adding to the balance sheet what you can trade still makes since. I've already pointed out why this repayment structure is better than a bank loan. I've also pointed out that I myself have had an investment return over 300% in one year.

I also have an open position in BAC that cost me $8000 for a $10/$15 JAN15 call spread. If this trade works out as expected, at expiration it will have a final value of $25000. Now, subtract out my $8000 initial investment, and that leaves you with $17000 profit in two years time. That's over 100% ROI per calendar year. And that's just trading long-dated options.

If one understands short-term options trading and is willing to take on additional risk, then even greater gains can be expected. I just had a SDRL bull put spread expire worthless (which was good for me) on 2/15 that involved very little risk (in my opinion due to my faith in SDRL), and it was a one month contract. I've done almost the exact same trade two months in a row (different strikes for the two months), and it hasn't bitten me in the ass yet. 420 could replicate these easy/low-risk trades and almost cover my interest payments just from them.

My trade was:
Buy 27 FEB13 $36 Puts for $371.71
Sell 27 FEB13 $37 Puts for $465.27
Both expired worthless, leaving me with a profit of $93.56 in 30 days. That's 3.465% interest on my $2700 investment for a low risk trade.

So scream at the walls all you guys want, in the world of options and futures, huge gains can be made if you make the right investment choices. The key is to know what you're investing in and not just blindly pick a security and trade it. I don't see or smell a scam here. It's my money on the line, so we'll end up seeing. I have $1500 split between two guys on the board right now, both which I expect will come in full plus interest.


That does not explain why he is offering for absurd interest rates. Because he's a nice guy and likes to spread the wealth around? No, because it's very likely to be a ponzi - intentionally or not.

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February 24, 2013, 05:04:47 PM
 #25

The interest rates aren't exactly absurd in my book if you look at how bitcoin trades. Its price swings are ridiculous. The $31 drop down to $28 the other day presented a perfect buying opportunity. $1500 invested at a $28 level would've netted around 53BTC. MtGox is showing $30.08 as last trade right now, so if all BTC were sold right now, that $1500 would be worth $1590 in roughly 1 days time. So there's almost 1/3rd of my interest for the whole 4 month period. If he can do something like this, or even much smaller, and turn out $50/week in profits from trading of BTC or LTC, then that means in the 16 week loan period, he could make $800 off of my money. That leaves him $500 in the positive after paying me $300.

It's more than feasible, especially with BTC trying to flirt with all-time highs and the shakiness associated with the market. The violent +/- $1 swings in the value create serious opportunity for currency traders. Nothing is going to change your minds though, so I don't know why I try. The post was made to just let the transaction be made public. It's my funds at risk. If you don't want to risk yours, then you don't have to make 420 an offer.

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February 24, 2013, 06:25:05 PM
 #26

The interest rates aren't exactly absurd in my book if you look at how bitcoin trades. Its price swings are ridiculous. The $31 drop down to $28 the other day presented a perfect buying opportunity. $1500 invested at a $28 level would've netted around 53BTC. MtGox is showing $30.08 as last trade right now, so if all BTC were sold right now, that $1500 would be worth $1590 in roughly 1 days time. So there's almost 1/3rd of my interest for the whole 4 month period. If he can do something like this, or even much smaller, and turn out $50/week in profits from trading of BTC or LTC, then that means in the 16 week loan period, he could make $800 off of my money. That leaves him $500 in the positive after paying me $300.

So why didn't you invest $1500 at the $28 level?  Because you can't predict the future.  If you could sure you'd make incredible returns and could justify paying out those rates.

Everything that you said is fine and dandy, but it doesn't explain why he is paying out interest at all.  If he knows how to make good returns, why involve us at all?  If you had a chance to make $1,500 profit and could choose to finance it yourself, or borrow the money and give away $1,200 in interest, which would you choose?  You still make money either way, but if you don't borrow, you make more.  Offering interest is a scheme to get as many lenders as possible before he defaults.

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February 24, 2013, 07:50:37 PM
 #27

Why didn't I invest? Because I don't have the time to day trade currencies. It's the same reason I don't trade "weeklys" in options trading. There's a lot of money in them, but I just don't have the time to monitor and manage the trades. I work long hours 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. Sure, no one can predict the future, but I would've been a buyer of some BTC at the $28 level after the pullback.

Other "real-world" methods of obtaining capital involve payback schedules that require much larger sums towards the principal over the life of the loan. You keep screaming it's a Ponzi, but I see loans requested and given consistently in the Loans section of the board for sums of BTC carrying 7% interest for a WEEK or TWO WEEKS and people make these loans. If 420 were to strictly make these types of loans through the life of my loan to him, he could make a killing and then some.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way with your "make $1500 yourself or give $1200 away as interest" deal. If I have $1500 to trade with and was making X amount off of that money, but that's all I had access to, then that's as much as I could make. But, if I could borrow another $1500 to trade with, this would double my funds, so I would have greater trading power to take advantage of the swings of the currency. Now, I'm making 2X (let's just say that for the sake of math) instead of just X. As long as the price of interest, Y, is less than the cost of X, I still come out making more than I would if I just had $1500 to invest with, so I can pay out Y from my 2X and keep the rest as profit. If 420 had enough leftover each month of the life of the loan, then he could theoretically build up a significant portion of his borrowed funds as excess profit and no longer accept such loans as he can trade fully independently from there on out.

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February 25, 2013, 01:58:52 AM
 #28

To the credit card arguments: Credit is limited

and why should i support the banks rather than my fellow bitcoiners?

for mlawrence, "the OP will eventually be drawing on new investments to pay interest.  That is what makes a ponzi." that I think is just conjecture and speculation

I have more loans paid back in the past than I currently have outstanding now; in fact cptmooseinc has given my first loan technically for this program or since I've made this thread and I had already talked to him about this beforehand I just wanted to make it public and give similar offers to others.

When you think or see people jumping in in hoards to give me offers that you think I would take or see me taking then you can scream and yell ponzi or say its very risky because I could make mistakes in how I'm making my money. Right now though, there's nothing I couldn't handle or just take out a credit card to pay back creditors if for some blue moon reason all my investments went to $0.

If you want to argue someone can run a ponzi without knowing they've created a ponzi (I think as TradeFortress mentioned), go ahead, I welcome that discussion, but that would be different than what I think you were trying to say

ADDITIONALY I WAS here when pirateat40's 'ponzi' fell apart or he stopped paying back creditors and their money was lost/stolen

If I'm correct after reviewing his scheme he was giving 1% internet A DAY.
Compounded thats over 34% return a month. I'm only giving 20% over 4 months. Nowhere near his.

The kind of funds he eventually acquired after building a reputation and growing his debt could make him a market maker or manipulator for the whole Bitcoin price...

He has one quarter of my post count, though he had high ratings:
5 - Excellent    116 (24.3%)
4 - Very Good    30 (6.3%)
3 - Good    14 (2.9%)
2 - Fair    9 (1.9%)
1 - Poor    43 (9%)

So if you can't trust someone with high ratings; obviously you just need to do your own research and invest wisely

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February 25, 2013, 10:55:20 PM
 #29

Received final $500 from cptmooseinc making the full amount received of $1,500 for our deal

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February 25, 2013, 11:02:18 PM
 #30

You beat me to it!

Just to note, the 13,000LTC option contract starts today. Anywhere between now and February 24, 2015 I can purchase 13,000LTC at a strike of $.10/LTC.

Thanks again 420!

-Moose

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March 01, 2013, 07:33:12 PM
 #31

Currently stating I'd be available for another LTC option contract no more than 5,000 LTC, I would prefer a 6 month term

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March 03, 2013, 12:14:13 AM
 #32

Also looking for another small loan of $500 Gox for 4 months @ 20% interest:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=148557.0

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March 03, 2013, 09:20:14 AM
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Per our discusssion via PM here's my contract offer....

You sell me an option to buy 2000 Litecoins at 10 cents U.S. per Litecoin for 9 months AND you send me 200 Litecoins (currently ~6.5c)  to my wallet now.
in return I send you 1 Bitcoin to your wallet.

Completion of the contract would need to be done either in 4 batches of 500 for bitcoin at the market value (Mt.Gox) of Bitcoins on the day/time of contract redemption request by me or Paypal  ($200 total, 2000 Litecoin x  10c) OR we would have to do the full amount via escrow with bitcoin or Paypal, escrow to be decided by us and if we can't come to agreement by a moderator/admin from Bitcointalk.  I prefer the first option using Bitcoin as we can do it relatively quickly and require little trust on either of our parts since it only amounts to either of us trusting the other for $50 per transaction until we complete the total.


If you accept we need to exchange Wallet IDs via PM (my Litecoin wallet and your Bitcoin wallet).
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March 03, 2013, 09:26:09 AM
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Per our discusssion via PM here's my contract offer....

You sell me an option to buy 2000 Litecoins at 10 cents U.S. per Litecoin for 9 months AND you send me 200 Litecoins (currently ~6.5c)  to my wallet now.
in return I send you 1 Bitcoin to your wallet.

Completion of the contract would need to be done either in 4 batches of 500 for bitcoin at the market value (Mt.Gox) of Bitcoins on the day/time of contract redemption request by me or Paypal  ($200 total, 2000 Litecoin x  10c) OR we would have to do the full amount via escrow with bitcoin or Paypal, escrow to be decided by us and if we can't come to agreement by a moderator/admin from Bitcointalk.  I prefer the first option using Bitcoin as we can do it relatively quickly and require little trust on either of our parts since it only amounts to either of us trusting the other for $50 per transaction until we complete the total.


If you accept we need to exchange Wallet IDs via PM (my Litecoin wallet and your Bitcoin wallet).

Accepted, under conditions:

1. Payment to be paid with btc equivalent of value (at Mt. Gox/CoinLab price) or GOX USD or CoinLab if its switched by then

2. You send 1BTC first to my wallet address: 13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am

3. Contract begins the day BTC received and therefore ends 9 months later on the same day of the month (including final day as last day to purchase LTC at contract price) this should be in December then

4. Send in 4 parts is fine if you send first as you are the purchaser

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March 03, 2013, 10:36:16 AM
 #35

Per our discusssion via PM here's my contract offer....

You sell me an option to buy 2000 Litecoins at 10 cents U.S. per Litecoin for 9 months AND you send me 200 Litecoins (currently ~6.5c)  to my wallet now.
in return I send you 1 Bitcoin to your wallet.

Completion of the contract would need to be done either in 4 batches of 500 for bitcoin at the market value (Mt.Gox) of Bitcoins on the day/time of contract redemption request by me or Paypal  ($200 total, 2000 Litecoin x  10c) OR we would have to do the full amount via escrow with bitcoin or Paypal, escrow to be decided by us and if we can't come to agreement by a moderator/admin from Bitcointalk.  I prefer the first option using Bitcoin as we can do it relatively quickly and require little trust on either of our parts since it only amounts to either of us trusting the other for $50 per transaction until we complete the total.


If you accept we need to exchange Wallet IDs via PM (my Litecoin wallet and your Bitcoin wallet).

Accepted, under conditions:

1. Payment to be paid with btc equivalent of value (at Mt. Gox/CoinLab price) or GOX USD or CoinLab if its switched by then

2. You send 1BTC first to my wallet address: 13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am

3. Contract begins the day BTC received and therefore ends 9 months later on the same day of the month (including final day as last day to purchase LTC at contract price) this should be in December then

4. Send in 4 parts is fine if you send first as you are the purchaser

Sounds like we have a deal... final terms...

1. Noobminer sends 1 Bitcoin to 420s address   13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am

2. In return Noobminer gets a 9 month option contract to purchase 2000 Litecoins at 10 cents U.S. AND immediately recieve 200 Litecoins in his wallet  LdK2Zx2tGFcABc3b2GdHZKGq2vtvUTpFXu

3.  Contract begins the day BTC received and therefore ends 9 months later on the same day of the month (including final day as last day to purchase LTC at contract price) this should be in December then

4.  Payment to redeem the contract to be paid with btc equivalent of value  $200 total (200 Litecoins x 10 cents) (at Mt. Gox/CoinLab price) or GOX USD or CoinLab if its switched by then on the day/time that a redemption request is made by Noobminer in this thread (if thread is still extant or by e-mail or other means.

5.  Completion of the contract will be done in 4 transfers of Noobminer's Bitcoin (per #4) of $50 U.S. transferred to Member 420's  chosen Bitcoin address followed by 420 sending 500 Litecoins to Noobminer's chosen Litecoin address, process to repeat 4 times until contract is complete.


Agreed to by Noobminer
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March 03, 2013, 10:48:22 AM
 #36

Per our discusssion via PM here's my contract offer....

You sell me an option to buy 2000 Litecoins at 10 cents U.S. per Litecoin for 9 months AND you send me 200 Litecoins (currently ~6.5c)  to my wallet now.
in return I send you 1 Bitcoin to your wallet.

Completion of the contract would need to be done either in 4 batches of 500 for bitcoin at the market value (Mt.Gox) of Bitcoins on the day/time of contract redemption request by me or Paypal  ($200 total, 2000 Litecoin x  10c) OR we would have to do the full amount via escrow with bitcoin or Paypal, escrow to be decided by us and if we can't come to agreement by a moderator/admin from Bitcointalk.  I prefer the first option using Bitcoin as we can do it relatively quickly and require little trust on either of our parts since it only amounts to either of us trusting the other for $50 per transaction until we complete the total.


If you accept we need to exchange Wallet IDs via PM (my Litecoin wallet and your Bitcoin wallet).

Accepted, under conditions:

1. Payment to be paid with btc equivalent of value (at Mt. Gox/CoinLab price) or GOX USD or CoinLab if its switched by then

2. You send 1BTC first to my wallet address: 13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am

3. Contract begins the day BTC received and therefore ends 9 months later on the same day of the month (including final day as last day to purchase LTC at contract price) this should be in December then

4. Send in 4 parts is fine if you send first as you are the purchaser

Sounds like we have a deal... final terms...

1. Noobminer sends 1 Bitcoin to 420s address   13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am

2. In return Noobminer gets a 9 month option contract to purchase 2000 Litecoins at 10 cents U.S. AND immediately recieve 200 Litecoins in his wallet  LdK2Zx2tGFcABc3b2GdHZKGq2vtvUTpFXu

3.  Contract begins the day BTC received and therefore ends 9 months later on the same day of the month (including final day as last day to purchase LTC at contract price) this should be in December then

4.  Payment to redeem the contract to be paid with btc equivalent of value  $200 total (200 Litecoins x 10 cents) (at Mt. Gox/CoinLab price) or GOX USD or CoinLab if its switched by then on the day/time that a redemption request is made by Noobminer in this thread (if thread is still extant or by e-mail or other means.

5.  Completion of the contract will be done in 4 transfers of Noobminer's Bitcoin (per #4) of $50 U.S. transferred to Member 420's  chosen Bitcoin address followed by 420 sending 500 Litecoins to Noobminer's chosen Litecoin address, process to repeat 4 times until contract is complete.


Agreed to by Noobminer

Agreed as well

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March 03, 2013, 11:00:01 AM
 #37

1 Bitcoin sent to
13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am
per the above contract agreement.
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March 03, 2013, 11:01:15 AM
 #38

Really? All that much effort for one bitcoin?

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March 03, 2013, 11:03:39 AM
 #39

1 Bitcoin sent to
13qvP8vSEKPxLHXNPeHtCE4TGgZFaZU6am
per the above contract agreement.

200 Litecoins sent to:
LdK2Zx2tGFcABc3b2GdHZKGq2vtvUTpFXu

Really? All that much effort for one bitcoin?

What's your point?

I actually barely made over 0.5BTC

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March 03, 2013, 11:04:08 AM
 #40

Really? All that much effort for one bitcoin?

Really... and thanks for cluttering up an ongoing trade.  Nice.
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