Mycelium's "crowdsale": basically a donation, not an investment by any means

[alani123]

If mycellium is not good crowdsale and won't be profit, any advices where we can invest?  

That depends on how much money you have and what returns you're looking for. Currently I'd say that that "The Dao" is a relatively risk-free investment, at least for the short term. You can invest with BTC -indirectly- by acquiring ETH.

If mycellium is not good crowdsale and won't be profit, any advices where we can invest? 

Well thats tricky. I would say wait for lisk to come out and grab some cheap  

Yep you are so right wait for Lisk. Market indicators are showing its gonna hit around 0.01 soon. Then when the DAPPS start rolling in the sky is the limit..

When it launches anything under 0.005 I am gonna be scooping up like there is no tomorrow.

Lisk is risky as well, not just financially. Have a look:

Please note, currently there is no protection against unauthorized system calls made from the running dapp. Therefore, running untrusted code is not yet advisable, and could potentially lead to loss of funds. Work is underway to provide a fully sandboxed environment in which to run untrusted code.

Source

[1715111260]

1715111260

[1715111260]

1715111260

[gravitate]

If mycellium is not good crowdsale and won't be profit, any advices where we can invest?  

That depends on how much money you have and what returns you're looking for. Currently I'd say that that "The Dao" is a relatively risk-free investment, at least for the short term. You can invest with BTC -indirectly- by acquiring ETH.

If mycellium is not good crowdsale and won't be profit, any advices where we can invest? 

Well thats tricky. I would say wait for lisk to come out and grab some cheap  

Yep you are so right wait for Lisk. Market indicators are showing its gonna hit around 0.01 soon. Then when the DAPPS start rolling in the sky is the limit..

When it launches anything under 0.005 I am gonna be scooping up like there is no tomorrow.

Lisk is risky as well, not just financially. Have a look:

Please note, currently there is no protection against unauthorized system calls made from the running dapp. Therefore, running untrusted code is not yet advisable, and could potentially lead to loss of funds. Work is underway to provide a fully sandboxed environment in which to run untrusted code.

Source

Yep they have a few upgrades to do with lisk but they are working on it. I am working on a DAPP myself and aware of that but have no doubt in my mind this will be 100% secure soon.

[crazywack]

I have to agree. After asking questions, and reading the terms I have no choice but to pass. Unless it becomes the wallet to end all wallets I don't see getting my money back. It's a shame they decided to go this route since it's my fave for mobile, but initial valuation is to damn high...

[gravitate]

I have to agree. After asking questions, and reading the terms I have no choice but to pass. Unless it becomes the wallet to end all wallets I don't see getting my money back. It's a shame they decided to go this route since it's my fave for mobile, but initial valuation is to damn high...

Well I think you guys are missing the point (or I am). Isnt this token going to be tradeable? Therefore with all the hype coming up the holders will coin it in? If they sell the token? The tokens will be a balance on your mycelium wallet with all your waves on.

Personally I put some into this its not bad at all


This, lisk and waves and DAO. Apart from that just hold your bitcoin for the halving

[crazywack]

I have to agree. After asking questions, and reading the terms I have no choice but to pass. Unless it becomes the wallet to end all wallets I don't see getting my money back. It's a shame they decided to go this route since it's my fave for mobile, but initial valuation is to damn high...

Well I think you guys are missing the point (or I am). Isnt this token going to be tradeable? Therefore with all the hype coming up the holders will coin it in? If they sell the token? The tokens will be a balance on your mycelium wallet with all your waves on.

Personally I put some into this its not bad at all


This, lisk and waves and DAO. Apart from that just hold your bitcoin for the halving

Could be right but your looking at a year before a working prototype is marketable on this. Goal was December but they already said they were going to move it back.

[gravitate]

wow a year? Man I didnt know that lol

maybe waves will be a while too then? huh well might put more into DAO then lol

[alani123]

I have to agree. After asking questions, and reading the terms I have no choice but to pass. Unless it becomes the wallet to end all wallets I don't see getting my money back. It's a shame they decided to go this route since it's my fave for mobile, but initial valuation is to damn high...

Well I think you guys are missing the point (or I am). Isnt this token going to be tradeable? Therefore with all the hype coming up the holders will coin it in? If they sell the token? The tokens will be a balance on your mycelium wallet with all your waves on.

Personally I put some into this its not bad at all


This, lisk and waves and DAO. Apart from that just hold your bitcoin for the halving

Could be right but your looking at a year before a working prototype is marketable on this. Goal was December but they already said they were going to move it back.

Can you give me a source? I should add this to the OP if it's true.

[calkob]

Dont like the sound of that, and i was thinking of looking at an investment myself. 

[gravitate]

Or maybe people are saying bad things about it because they invested and want more of the share of the wallet to themselves lol

 

You have to take what you read on this forum with a pinch of salt and make a decision yourself.

[bitbitch]

where's the ROI proposition?

am i a giver to crypto charities?

[crazywack]

I have to agree. After asking questions, and reading the terms I have no choice but to pass. Unless it becomes the wallet to end all wallets I don't see getting my money back. It's a shame they decided to go this route since it's my fave for mobile, but initial valuation is to damn high...

Well I think you guys are missing the point (or I am). Isnt this token going to be tradeable? Therefore with all the hype coming up the holders will coin it in? If they sell the token? The tokens will be a balance on your mycelium wallet with all your waves on.

Personally I put some into this its not bad at all


This, lisk and waves and DAO. Apart from that just hold your bitcoin for the halving

Could be right but your looking at a year before a working prototype is marketable on this. Goal was December but they already said they were going to move it back.

Can you give me a source? I should add this to the OP if it's true.

Here's from the other thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1452147.0

I'll edit this with the Reddit post too.

[forzendiablo]

i am NOT putting a dime on this

[gravitate]

i am NOT putting a dime on this

thanks A bigger % for me then hehe 

[bitbitch]

is Mycelium going to corner the wallet market? i would invest if the terms were more generous. 5% of just the wallet product is mean.

[alani123]

is Mycelium going to corner the wallet market? i would invest if the terms were more generous. 5% of just the wallet product is mean.

Not many bitcoiners people think like you (sadly, I would add). The non-dilutable share that gives investors rights to receive future investments sounds nice but it's a very non-standard practice for securities and even illegal in many jurisdictions. I'm afraid that this promise has lead to many people putting money into this, not for the product, but for the fact that Mycelium promised them a 5% stake on future investments. This isn't a viable model for investment, let alone that all the risk is put on investors.

[Rassah]

Part 1
Unacceptable practices:
Giving a 10% discount to people expressing interest prior to the sale.
You don't have to be a genius to see how bad of a practice this is for securities (note: this crowdsale isn't even a security) that are supposedly representing a stake in a company.

It's a common practice for companies to sell, or give away for free, stock to employees and company insiders. We are just doing this for the initial public. Note our "insiders," those being managers and owners, will not be buying to avoid any conflicts of interest.

Promising investors part of the money received from future crowdsales
In their own words:

You get the share of Mycelium and the right to receive money whenever Mycelium gets more expensive. Let's suppose that this time, with this crowdsale, it will be valued at 100 million USD. Imagine that when we sell another portion one year later it will be valued at 1 billion USD. So you will get 900 million USD multiplied by your portion (if you are the owner of 5% you will get 5% of 900 million = 45 million). Your initial investment stays with you: you keep owning this right and it is non-dilutable. The next 20% we sell will be dilutable.

Remember that a Cyprus-based holding company is involved, and Mycelium operations are supposedly Latvian-based. This is a borderline pyramid scheme setup and illegal for securities in most of the world.

You buy a share of company stock at $x. That means you are literally owner of $x amount of the company, including company assets such as cash. If the company valuation grows, such as from a second round of investments or from increased revenues, your $x worth of stock grows. Then if the company offers to repurchase stock shares, you can trade your stock for the amount of cash that you literally already own. How is this set up any different?

Absolutely zero legal fallback

There will be no refunds. Token is not a security, is not listed, authorized, issued or traded on any regulated market.

Wrong about no legal feedback. Yes, tokens are not traded on regulated markets, but SARs typically are not. You do get a legal signed contract between you and the company which gives you the legal right to any growth in company value, which you can take to court to claim your right. This isn't just ETH token that only represents what people feel about ETH's growth, this is an actual legal contract granting you legal rights.
As for no refunds, refunds aren't given during valuation sales because otherwise those sales would never go anywhere. A few people invest, see too little has been invested, and pull back out. Next group invests, sees too little, and pulls out. Valuation never goes above zero. That's why there are no refunds in these types of sales.

No ETA on project rollout

You said no ETA, and then literally linked to where an ETA was given. We're sorry we can't give you an exact date, but we have experience launching big projects, and know they will always be delayed beyond whatever date is giver. So we see no point besides a generalization. Remember Butterfly Labs? Etherium? Practically everything else in this space?

and the creators have no clear idea how it's going to be built or even what it's going to be. You're you would literally be buying a stake in vapourware.
part 2

It is being build on ReactNative, with Bitcore as the initial bitcoin library. The initial planning began in August, development began in late October, and the project has been in development for over 6 months. At this point the development platform is set up, UI is done, app development has started and works for sending coins, and we are currently in the process of developing the API. Regarding what it's going to be, it's on the web page, the press releases, and a dozen or so articles discussing it in depth, about what it will be, what our business plans are, and how it will make money. Or you could ask. We are not a secretive company. I'm all over the place and am pretty easy to reach.

Why this has a high chance of being a loss:
First things first, up to this point, could you name anything that Mycelium did that was a commercial success? Their wallet software was free and not monetized, which is nice for users but not for potential investors. A supposed advantage of this crowdsale is dividends but there's no talk about how they're going to turn in profit.

Mycelium Entropy was a success. More than half was sold our before it was done, the rest was sold out, and then some, shortly after. Demand was so high we ran out of units. We made a pretty good profit on that. The wallet itself is a success too. Consistently ranked among the top bitcoin wallets, over 300,000 downloads, over 200,000 active users, a strong brand recognition and an extremely loyal user base.

They are granting themselvs the right to repurchase shares at the initial price.
There's no clear plan on how this project is potentially going to turn in profit, but even in the unlikely event that the project becomes profitable, they could buy back the shares at the initial price and end their obligation to investors.

Regarding the shares being bought back at the initial price, you, along with unfortunately many others, misunderstood what these shares you are buying are. The token itself is just a contract, used to prove that you are a legitimate owner. Think of them as just a really expensive piece of paper. What those tokens give you are Stock Appreciation Rights (SAR), which grants you a legal right to any increase in company valuation. So if you buy a token for $1, and the company grows 10 times, your token is still worth $1, which is what we will repurchase it for, but your SAR, the right attached to that token, is worth $9, which you can exchange for cash, or if we ever have an IPO, can convert directly to equivalent share of stock. And, should the wallet ever get a profit, those tokens will be converted to dividend paying assets, allowing you to receive a share of those profits. Basically, instead of the usual shares of stock that we are used to, which themselves grow with company value, SARs themselves don't grow, but have a right attached to them which, when combined with the SAR, grow together like a share of stock would.

Can only invest in the wallet but there's no guarantee that the money will be spent on it instead of other projects (that Mycelium won't pay investors dividends for)

And do I have a guarantee that the collected funds will only be used for the wallet project and not for the rest of the company?

Not entirely, but that's mainly because eventually all of the rest of our company will be rolled into this wallet. Most of the expense will be used to pay Wallet developer salaries, but some of our resources (like office and general brand marketing) are shared, so it would be difficult to keep completely separate. Sorry I can't give a more satisfactory answer.

We have only one Accounting, Legal, and HR department for the whole company. And it's very likely that other of Mycelium's projects will just be rolled into the wallet eventually anyway. I know this raises some concerns, but I can't give a better answer in this case.

Tokens are released in their own platform.
So fair distribution is entirely based on trust, as well as trading. Yet they claim that Token owners can either sell them on the open market at any moment or redeem to us if conditions are met, which is misleading at best.

Tokens will be issued as colored coins, which you can hold and trade now in Colu wallet, and will be able to hold and trade from within Mycelium wallet by the end of the month. We expect exchanges will adopt the Colu platform and allow trading them on the market soon too. So I don't know why this is misleading.

[Rassah]

On to the rest...

The one thing that puts me off is the fact that we are not buying any shares in their company

You are buying legal ownership to company assets. These are actual legal SAR's.

How can be sure that we could sell these tokens to anyone later on for a profit?

This is an investment in a startup. Profits are never guaranteed. But if the company becomes more valuable, or starts turning a profit, the legal contract you receive with the token binds the company to pay you your increased share of the company, should you ask to receive it.

Their crowdsale doesn't even have to abide to regulations because it's not a security, there's no fallback if they try to defraud investors.

There's no fall back on the SEC, but there is still fallback on the legal system. You can take your contract to court to sue us if we defraud you.

And I don't know how they can put a worth of $100 million to $900 million on something that is basically free for everyone to use. What am I missing here? It looks like a get rich quick scheme that can blow up in our faces.

We did not put any worth on our company. That's what the sale is for, to see what the market believes our company (the wallet division, at least) is worth. The $100 was just round (unfortunately high) numbers to explain the math easier.

Somebody shared the original crowdsale pdf with me privately. I've uploaded it to archive.org
https://ia601503.us.archive.org/23/items/Mycelium_crowdsale/crowdsale.pdf

This wasn't a privately secretly shared document, this document was publicly available here https://wallet.mycelium.com/elements/documentation.html since the beginning. Only things changed since then was supposed to be times added to the date (we initially said May 1st, but pushed it to midnight May 1st due to running out of time to prepare) and formatting. If there are other differences, please let me know.

If they could get the bloody thing out sooner, then maybe people would be more interested in ""investing"", but that doesn't look like it is anytime soon and chances are they will be pressed for funds.

We are currently funded through the end of the year, and should have enough funds to get this project done. We will need the extra funds to develop the necessary business relationships and APIs after, and to hopefully hire three more devs to get it out sooner (one iOS, one Android, one UI). Also don't forget this is the initial 5% sale. We will be doing a 20% sale, to "real" investors and VCs, later.

How is this setup any different than Ethereum, Lisk, or Waves ICO's ?

I don't know about Lisk or Waves, but with Etherium you buy currency tied to the project, on the speculation that the currency itself will be useful. With this, you are literally buying stake ownership in the company, which will grow along with the company like any other investment, and has a future possibility of paying dividends should the company become profitable. This isn't just a donation.

Goal was December but they already said they were going to move it back.

Goal was August, actually, but Microsoft screwed us over, so we had to move it back to "end of the year"

[Rassah]

And an indepth interview about what we're actually doing here https://news.bitcoin.com/interview-rassah-mycelium/

[danijel]

Part 1
Unacceptable practices:
Giving a 10% discount to people expressing interest prior to the sale.
You don't have to be a genius to see how bad of a practice this is for securities (note: this crowdsale isn't even a security) that are supposedly representing a stake in a company.

It's a common practice for companies to sell, or give away for free, stock to employees and company insiders. We are just doing this for the initial public. Note our "insiders," those being managers and owners, will not be buying to avoid any conflicts of interest.

Promising investors part of the money received from future crowdsales
In their own words:

You get the share of Mycelium and the right to receive money whenever Mycelium gets more expensive. Let's suppose that this time, with this crowdsale, it will be valued at 100 million USD. Imagine that when we sell another portion one year later it will be valued at 1 billion USD. So you will get 900 million USD multiplied by your portion (if you are the owner of 5% you will get 5% of 900 million = 45 million). Your initial investment stays with you: you keep owning this right and it is non-dilutable. The next 20% we sell will be dilutable.

Remember that a Cyprus-based holding company is involved, and Mycelium operations are supposedly Latvian-based. This is a borderline pyramid scheme setup and illegal for securities in most of the world.

You buy a share of company stock at $x. That means you are literally owner of $x amount of the company, including company assets such as cash. If the company valuation grows, such as from a second round of investments or from increased revenues, your $x worth of stock grows. Then if the company offers to repurchase stock shares, you can trade your stock for the amount of cash that you literally already own. How is this set up any different?

Absolutely zero legal fallback

There will be no refunds. Token is not a security, is not listed, authorized, issued or traded on any regulated market.

Wrong about no legal feedback. Yes, tokens are not traded on regulated markets, but SARs typically are not. You do get a legal signed contract between you and the company which gives you the legal right to any growth in company value, which you can take to court to claim your right. This isn't just ETH token that only represents what people feel about ETH's growth, this is an actual legal contract granting you legal rights.
As for no refunds, refunds aren't given during valuation sales because otherwise those sales would never go anywhere. A few people invest, see too little has been invested, and pull back out. Next group invests, sees too little, and pulls out. Valuation never goes above zero. That's why there are no refunds in these types of sales.

No ETA on project rollout

You said no ETA, and then literally linked to where an ETA was given. We're sorry we can't give you an exact date, but we have experience launching big projects, and know they will always be delayed beyond whatever date is giver. So we see no point besides a generalization. Remember Butterfly Labs? Etherium? Practically everything else in this space?

and the creators have no clear idea how it's going to be built or even what it's going to be. You're you would literally be buying a stake in vapourware.
part 2

It is being build on ReactNative, with Bitcore as the initial bitcoin library. The initial planning began in August, development began in late October, and the project has been in development for over 6 months. At this point the development platform is set up, UI is done, app development has started and works for sending coins, and we are currently in the process of developing the API. Regarding what it's going to be, it's on the web page, the press releases, and a dozen or so articles discussing it in depth, about what it will be, what our business plans are, and how it will make money. Or you could ask. We are not a secretive company. I'm all over the place and am pretty easy to reach.

Why this has a high chance of being a loss:
First things first, up to this point, could you name anything that Mycelium did that was a commercial success? Their wallet software was free and not monetized, which is nice for users but not for potential investors. A supposed advantage of this crowdsale is dividends but there's no talk about how they're going to turn in profit.

Mycelium Entropy was a success. More than half was sold our before it was done, the rest was sold out, and then some, shortly after. Demand was so high we ran out of units. We made a pretty good profit on that. The wallet itself is a success too. Consistently ranked among the top bitcoin wallets, over 300,000 downloads, over 200,000 active users, a strong brand recognition and an extremely loyal user base.

They are granting themselvs the right to repurchase shares at the initial price.
There's no clear plan on how this project is potentially going to turn in profit, but even in the unlikely event that the project becomes profitable, they could buy back the shares at the initial price and end their obligation to investors.

Regarding the shares being bought back at the initial price, you, along with unfortunately many others, misunderstood what these shares you are buying are. The token itself is just a contract, used to prove that you are a legitimate owner. Think of them as just a really expensive piece of paper. What those tokens give you are Stock Appreciation Rights (SAR), which grants you a legal right to any increase in company valuation. So if you buy a token for $1, and the company grows 10 times, your token is still worth $1, which is what we will repurchase it for, but your SAR, the right attached to that token, is worth $9, which you can exchange for cash, or if we ever have an IPO, can convert directly to equivalent share of stock. And, should the wallet ever get a profit, those tokens will be converted to dividend paying assets, allowing you to receive a share of those profits. Basically, instead of the usual shares of stock that we are used to, which themselves grow with company value, SARs themselves don't grow, but have a right attached to them which, when combined with the SAR, grow together like a share of stock would.

Can only invest in the wallet but there's no guarantee that the money will be spent on it instead of other projects (that Mycelium won't pay investors dividends for)

And do I have a guarantee that the collected funds will only be used for the wallet project and not for the rest of the company?

Not entirely, but that's mainly because eventually all of the rest of our company will be rolled into this wallet. Most of the expense will be used to pay Wallet developer salaries, but some of our resources (like office and general brand marketing) are shared, so it would be difficult to keep completely separate. Sorry I can't give a more satisfactory answer.

We have only one Accounting, Legal, and HR department for the whole company. And it's very likely that other of Mycelium's projects will just be rolled into the wallet eventually anyway. I know this raises some concerns, but I can't give a better answer in this case.

Tokens are released in their own platform.
So fair distribution is entirely based on trust, as well as trading. Yet they claim that Token owners can either sell them on the open market at any moment or redeem to us if conditions are met, which is misleading at best.

Tokens will be issued as colored coins, which you can hold and trade now in Colu wallet, and will be able to hold and trade from within Mycelium wallet by the end of the month. We expect exchanges will adopt the Colu platform and allow trading them on the market soon too. So I don't know why this is misleading.



wel thank you for explaining .i invested some coin but i was a little woried becouse a lot of people think that this is a scam.
now the sky is clear i feel good.
thank you

[gravitate]

Rassah is god

Mycelium is the best.