MPEx & Bitcoin Stock Exchanges

[xavier]

So anybody who wants to invest in long-term BTC assets has to deal with these 3rd parties.

From doing some research it seems like the operator of MPEx is not exactly the most upstanding character (please excuse me if I missed something there or am wrong about this).

Just wanted to get your opinion on anybody who has trusted these exchanges in the past & purchased assets through them (it seems at least some people have), and why. Especially given what happened with GLBSE. How can investors be sure that's not going to happen again? (in particular, GLBSE was unable to comply with AML & legal regulations. Surely the same is going to occur in due course with MPEx). What's the risk?

The dividend yield on SDICE may be 40% but tbh the real issue seems to be whether an investor's capital will still be preserved after a full year of investment (my intuition from looking at posts on these forums combined with the controversial legal position occupied by bitcoin is 'no').

Is this a serious proposition?

Although I understand there are 'pass through' funds that allow investment without going through MPEx directly, it seems the whole ecosystem depends on MPEx - if that fails it would still lead to a wipeout.

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[bitdragon]

it's risky risky business indeed and we all learn it at one point.
I have yet to do it, but paper wallet remains the safest and the way to go.
Overall, I have had more success dealing person to person and develop a relationship, and help in your area to do promotion and local deals.
Looking back on some disastrous mistakes are these situations where there are multiple intermediaries and that is just asking for trouble..

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Colored coins allow issuing assets without having to rely on 3rd parties.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

This is why exchanges with public asset lists are important (for example, BitFunder). Even if BitFunder suddenly shuts down, asset issuers will be able to know who owned what.

[BitcoinINV]

MPEx's PR person is a "skidmark" on bitcoins underwear that just won't come out.
I emailed the guys at bitfunder got a email, sent one back and never heard from them again. I understand they are busy but still, I would be nice to have please hold on while I look into the issue or something like that... now that it has been over 7 days i'm sure I just gave up. I will find another business that will suit my needs.

The eco system does not fall on MPEx, don't let them bloat your head with that crap. They do have a large dealing only because of S.Dice if S.Dice ever pulls out they will loose the only client that saves them face.

Pass through is great if you do not want to deal with MPEx personally.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

@BitcoinINV: Unless you were planning to list a really crappy security, try sending an email again or go on IRC.

[BitcoinINV]

@BitcoinINV: Unless you were planning to list a really crappy security, try sending an email again or go on IRC.

Was not listing nothing was getting info about what they would and would not allow, some legal questions and other things. IRC is empty tried that for 2 days going in there for 15 minutes at a time asking "anyone in here who can tell me about securities requirments."

This is not good enough answer for me lol


terms

We (BitFunder) do not accept responsibility for anything.
WARNING: Use at your own risk.
You must agree to 1 and 2.

Honestly, with the btc community and how btc works, anything other than that, is a lie in our opinion.
We do promise to list all holdings by the shareholders by providing a public btcaddress/asset/shares list live 24/7. (Click Here)
This leaves our liabilities down to just BTC held in accounts with us.
We will do everything in our power to keep things as easy, painless, accurate and as fair as possible.
We promise to deliver the services of this site as accurately as possible and to the best of our ability to the users and to continue to try to grow with the community.

[rini17]

Once you dispense with need for superficial "niceness" and "profesionality" and consider things rationally, you may find out there's a strong reason behind how MPEx does things.  Both Bitfunder and BTCT I perceive are doing their utmost to be nice,to cater to  everyone...and I fear they'll spread thin and it will be their undoing. Or maybe not I hope, they are nice folks.

Oh and MPEx was reaching 50k/mo volume long before satoshidice, due to their in-house BTCUSD options trader-MPOE. Many ignore MPOE at their detriment.

Edit: MPEx publishes its database,too, in encrypted form. Just releasing a GPG key will be sufficient to decrypt it.

[usagi]

When will the MPOE monthly results for February 2013 be released? thx

[rini17]

When will the MPOE monthly results for February 2013 be released? thx

Options for this month expire last Friday in the month at midnight UTC (today), monthly results will be released few hours after that, at most.

[Korbman]

it seems the whole ecosystem depends on MPEx - if that fails it would still lead to a wipeout.

Oh goodness, it seems you've been listening to MPOE-PR a bit too much.
MPEx hosts, like, 3 stocks...one for MPEx, one of SDICE, and one for S.BBET. Haven't been on there in a while so I might be missing one...but in any case if MPEx goes down Erik (the owner of SDICE) will probably just move to another exchange.

They only think they're the best because they host SDICE, which has quite the trading volume.

[burnside]

This is why exchanges with public asset lists are important (for example, BitFunder). Even if BitFunder suddenly shuts down, asset issuers will be able to know who owned what.

If bitfunder "suddenly shuts down" the list is not available because it's on their website.  Though there's always this: https://btct.co/history-bitfunder/ (don't use IE, I don't mirror the superfluous content so it breaks)

The list also does not include any way to contact the shareholders.  (Another Edit/Add: Bitfunder did in fact add this option, just found it in my account preferences!  I can share my email with the issuers!)  

btct.co makes shares/email/bitcoin address lists available to issuers on the site (html), via the api (json), and by emailing all issuers complete lists at 12 hour intervals.

@BitcoinINV: Unless you were planning to list a really crappy security, try sending an email again or go on IRC.

Was not listing nothing was getting info about what they would and would not allow, some legal questions and other things. IRC is empty tried that for 2 days going in there for 15 minutes at a time asking "anyone in here who can tell me about securities requirments."

This is not good enough answer for me lol

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85829.msg1531827#msg1531827

Unfortunately most of these places (btct.co included) are one or two man shops.  There's not a lot of income to support much more, so when something happens at home, things get backed up.  Hopefully he's back soon and things are ok.

Edit/add: Heh, I forgot to mention the times when you're just super-focused on an awesome new feature!  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146009.msg1550069#msg1550069

Once you dispense with need for superficial "niceness" and "profesionality" and consider things rationally, you may find out there's a strong reason behind how MPEx does things.  Both Bitfunder and BTCT I perceive are doing their utmost to be nice,to cater to  everyone...and I fear they'll spread thin and it will be their undoing. Or maybe not I hope, they are nice folks.

Oh and MPEx was reaching 50k/mo volume long before satoshidice, due to their in-house BTCUSD options trader-MPOE. Many ignore MPOE at their detriment.

Edit: MPEx publishes its database,too, in encrypted form. Just releasing a GPG key will be sufficient to decrypt it.

We definitely try hard at BTC-TC.  Too hard at times.  But we're still an early startup, (~6 months in biz) so that is to be expected.  I've had a few discussions with some community members and they've had some great ideas for tightening controls on new listings, so we'll be implementing that soon.  We also have some of the strictest controls out there on funds, which I believe were one of the major causes of the GLBSE price crashes right before the operational collapse.

Cheers.

[Ukyo]

MPEx's PR person is a "skidmark" on bitcoins underwear that just won't come out.
I emailed the guys at bitfunder got a email, sent one back and never heard from them again. I understand they are busy but still, I would be nice to have please hold on while I look into the issue or something like that... now that it has been over 7 days i'm sure I just gave up. I will find another business that will suit my needs.

The eco system does not fall on MPEx, don't let them bloat your head with that crap. They do have a large dealing only because of S.Dice if S.Dice ever pulls out they will loose the only client that saves them face.

Pass through is great if you do not want to deal with MPEx personally.

Amusingly enough, I show no ticket updates.
I see a ticket, a ticket response, but nothing more.
Are you sure you posted the update to the ticket?

[BitcoinINV]

@BitcoinINV: Unless you were planning to list a really crappy security, try sending an email again or go on IRC.

Was not listing nothing was getting info about what they would and would not allow, some legal questions and other things. IRC is empty tried that for 2 days going in there for 15 minutes at a time asking "anyone in here who can tell me about securities requirments."

This is not good enough answer for me lol

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85829.msg1531827#msg1531827

Unfortunately most of these places (btct.co included) are one or two man shops.  There's not a lot of income to support much more, so when something happens at home, things get backed up.  Hopefully he's back soon and things are ok.

Yea I understand that I do a 1 man show myself besides the help of a great programmer that helps me with coding and stuff. But I still answer emails in a 48hrs or l otherwise have "gone fishing" sign up JK. But I let people know there will be a delay.


Edit:

Kowalczewski, Daniel <drkowalczewski@mailccc.net>
Feb 13 (9 days ago)

to BitFunder
Its not for a GLSBE stock its for a new one, and I wanted to make you aware it is a real company with real stock. I want to be sure this will not put you in some sort of legal fix. Bitcoin-.com is our site,
http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/app/ui/fsp/version/searchSummaryCompanyFSP/FSP270025/1.do?noReturn=true
Registration with the NZ gov as a Limited Company and a Financial Services Provider.
Feel free to make a account in the xxxx section.

[Ukyo]

If bitfunder "suddenly shuts down" the list is not available because it's on their website.  Though there's always this: https://btct.co/history-bitfunder/ (don't use IE, I don't mirror the superfluous content so it breaks)

The list also does not include any way to contact the shareholders.  (Another Edit/Add: Bitfunder did in fact add this option, just found it in my account preferences!  I can share my email with the issuers!)  

btct.co makes shares/email/bitcoin address lists available to issuers on the site (html), via the api (json), and by emailing all issuers complete lists at 12 hour intervals.

Thanks for the backup. I would love to offer users the same for btct, except that doesn't sound possible.

[Ukyo]

Ahh theres the issue, you replied to the email, not the ticket.
I added a note to support responses making sure people know not to reply to the email. Was thinking it was already there, I guess not.

@BitcoinINV: Unless you were planning to list a really crappy security, try sending an email again or go on IRC.

Was not listing nothing was getting info about what they would and would not allow, some legal questions and other things. IRC is empty tried that for 2 days going in there for 15 minutes at a time asking "anyone in here who can tell me about securities requirments."

This is not good enough answer for me lol

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85829.msg1531827#msg1531827

Unfortunately most of these places (btct.co included) are one or two man shops.  There's not a lot of income to support much more, so when something happens at home, things get backed up.  Hopefully he's back soon and things are ok.

Yea I understand that I do a 1 man show myself besides the help of a great programmer that helps me with coding and stuff. But I still answer emails in a 48hrs or l otherwise have "gone fishing" sign up JK. But I let people know there will be a delay.


Edit:

Kowalczewski, Daniel <drkowalczewski@mailccc.net>
Feb 13 (9 days ago)

to BitFunder
Its not for a GLSBE stock its for a new one, and I wanted to make you aware it is a real company with real stock. I want to be sure this will not put you in some sort of legal fix. Bitcoin-.com is our site,
http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/app/ui/fsp/version/searchSummaryCompanyFSP/FSP270025/1.do?noReturn=true
Registration with the NZ gov as a Limited Company and a Financial Services Provider.
Feel free to make a account in the xxxx section.

[BitcoinINV]

Yea I understand, that why I did not go off making some post about shitty service like you see people doing all the time lol.

[Deprived]

If bitfunder "suddenly shuts down" the list is not available because it's on their website.  Though there's always this: https://btct.co/history-bitfunder/ (don't use IE, I don't mirror the superfluous content so it breaks)

The list also does not include any way to contact the shareholders.  (Another Edit/Add: Bitfunder did in fact add this option, just found it in my account preferences!  I can share my email with the issuers!)  

btct.co makes shares/email/bitcoin address lists available to issuers on the site (html), via the api (json), and by emailing all issuers complete lists at 12 hour intervals.

Thanks for the backup. I would love to offer users the same for btct, except that doesn't sound possible.

Don't really need a backup of a partial list (which is all you can get on Bitfunder) when, as an asset issuer, I can get a full list of my investors on BTC.CO any time I want.

My view is that making a partial list public does more harm than good (it gives out information that shouldn't be in the public domain - allowing correlation between various holdings and also determination of the holdings in an asset by someone buying or selling).  Investors have to trust the asset issuer anyway if they want their investments honoured - so why not trust them to hold the list in the first place?

Publishing an incomplete list is the worst of both worlds - it doesn't give the information necessary to continue operations whilst giving out information to everyone that they have no right to be given.

[burnside]

If bitfunder "suddenly shuts down" the list is not available because it's on their website.  Though there's always this: https://btct.co/history-bitfunder/ (don't use IE, I don't mirror the superfluous content so it breaks)

The list also does not include any way to contact the shareholders.  (Another Edit/Add: Bitfunder did in fact add this option, just found it in my account preferences!  I can share my email with the issuers!)  

btct.co makes shares/email/bitcoin address lists available to issuers on the site (html), via the api (json), and by emailing all issuers complete lists at 12 hour intervals.

Thanks for the backup. I would love to offer users the same for btct, except that doesn't sound possible.

No, probably not.  I wasn't comfortable with publishing the BTC addresses.

Someone could start up a backup service though that issuers could use.  Eg, they open an account, plug in the api endpoint (w/ api key), and the backup service could archive the lists at regular intervals.  This service would be good for backing up more than just the asset lists.  Regular users could use it to back up their portfolio contents, etc.

Don't really need a backup of a partial list (which is all you can get on Bitfunder) when, as an asset issuer, I can get a full list of my investors on BTC.CO any time I want.

My view is that making a partial list public does more harm than good (it gives out information that shouldn't be in the public domain - allowing correlation between various holdings and also determination of the holdings in an asset by someone buying or selling).  Investors have to trust the asset issuer anyway if they want their investments honoured - so why not trust them to hold the list in the first place?

Publishing an incomplete list is the worst of both worlds - it doesn't give the information necessary to continue operations whilst giving out information to everyone that they have no right to be given.

I think the public list is complete.  If I understand it correctly, there's a separate private list (which includes email addresses) which is also complete, with the exception of your email address if you have not opted into sharing it.

[Deprived]

I think the public list is complete.  If I understand it correctly, there's a separate private list (which includes email addresses) which is also complete, with the exception of your email address if you have not opted into sharing it.

Public list isn't complete as it only contains entries for those who have entered a BTC address to be published.  So, e.g., if an asset is imported from GLBSE and shares assigned to email addresses with no existing account then there won't be any BTC address published for them (as there isn't one to publish).

Unless that's somehow changed recently - last time I checked listed shares for assets were (in some cases significantly) below those shown as outstanding.

Using BTC addresses rather than email addresses gives some degree of anonymity - but at the cost of ease of use and (more importantly) completeness.