Online gambling legalized in Nevada

[cypherdoc]

the thing is, all these "regulated" sites will have to compete with the likes of Seals with Clubs.  just who has the cost advantage there as well as the features?

Regulated sites will have more expenses.  They'll need to comply with all the regulations, pay the licensing fees, get their software and processes audited, etc.  However they'll in general have better software and features.

The unregulated market is somewhat shady right now.  The sites that serve the US generally don't answer to a regulatory body that protects the players.  Several online poker rooms have gone out of business without paying customers their balances.  Existing rooms that serve the US often take several months to deliver a payout.  This is where bitcoins are attractive.  Since they can be delivered so quickly and without using traditional banking methods it significantly limits player risk.

When regulated rooms open, most of the risk will be gone for the player.  Some may still choose to play on unregulated sites but most will choose the regulated rooms run by the name brand casinos they're familiar with.  I think it's unlikely those casinos will accept bitcoins in the early goings as they will have regulatory bodies to answer to, strict KYC requirements, and that sort of thing.  

all good points but i'm not sure i buy the one where most will choose the regulated rooms.

i would think there are quite a few players who will like Bitcoin for it's anonymity properties since their winnings could be hidden.  also, there's the ongoing USD debasement risk that more libertarian types will always want to avoid.  if you're good at poker and can accumulate alot of Bitcoin winnings while it's price continues to escalate, you can win on both ends.  the speed of the tx's are also important.  the provable risk is another feature.

frankly, the regulated casinos are going to be subjected to exactly the same types of fiat and banking pressures that Bitcoin exerts on any inefficient or potentially corrupt industry.

Unregulated rooms have been serving the US for a decade.  $100s of millions have been lost by players on those rooms to corrupt ownership.  The US igaming industry and customer base is going to explode with joy when Caesars and others open poker rooms.  They will trust the games to be fair, that their money is safe, and that they'll get it quickly.  They will also like the product as Caesars will have spent a ton of money refining it.  Further some states may even choose to criminalize players who participate in unregulated gaming.  This might not phase the hardcore player but it will phase the masses.

I agree that there will be players that will prefer to play on unregulated sites for many reasons, including btc acceptance.  Theres going to be room for that market to exist.  But realistically igaming is going to be dominated by the big boys with the big customer lists and the ability to offer things like Vegas vacations to their customers.

This whole process is going to take a long time though.  We might see one or two states offer igaming in 2013.  Without a Federal bill, it'll be maybe 5 or 10 more states in 2014 at most.  Not all states will jump on the bandwagon.  Theres time for things to evolve and for bitcoin gaming to find it's market.

i agree with this.

my assumptions though apply to an unregulated site that chooses to act ethically.  they would also need to be funded properly and have the general business savvy to make Bitcoin work.  it would be in their best interests.  

the upside potential for such a site would be enormous.

[KTE]

I don't see the benefit of bitcoin online poker over fiat online poker if both are legal. I think the assumption that people would for some reason flock to BTC in this case is overly optimistic.

If online gambling becomes legal in the US nationwide, it's a definite setback to BTC. It's a pretty straightforward case, really.

Let's just hope it stays illegal long enough for the sake of my BTC holdings.

[cypherdoc]

I don't see the benefit of bitcoin online poker over fiat online poker if both are legal. I think the assumption that people would for some reason flock to BTC in this case is overly optimistic.

If online gambling becomes legal in the US nationwide, it's a definite setback to BTC. It's a pretty straightforward case, really.

Let's just hope it stays illegal long enough for the sake of my BTC holdings.

let me repeat what i said below:

1.  anonymity
2.  fast payout
3.  dealing in an appreciating currency
4.  provably fair
5.  cross border

[KTE]

let me repeat what i said below:

1.  anonymity
2.  fast payout
3.  dealing in an appreciating currency
4.  provably fair
5.  cross border

1. niche appeal
2. payout speed probably not a deciding factor for many (as a long time online poker player this has never been an issue to me)
3. only relevant to speculators and only if BTC is appreciating .. this is not really a point about BTC online poker, more about BTC in general
4. provably fair should be possible without BTC - if not, why not?
5. this is the best argument out of the five here .. some diminishing points tho: a) US player base is pretty big in of itself, b) couldn't pross border be possible with fiat as well if igaming is made legal in the US?

[cypherdoc]

let me repeat what i said below:

1.  anonymity
2.  fast payout
3.  dealing in an appreciating currency
4.  provably fair
5.  cross border

1. niche appeal
2. payout speed probably not a deciding factor for many (as a long time online poker player this has never been an issue to me)
3. only relevant to speculators and only if BTC is appreciating .. this is not really a point about BTC online poker, more about BTC in general
4. provably fair should be possible without BTC - if not, why not?
5. this is the best argument out of the five here .. some diminishing points tho: a) US player base is pretty big in of itself, b) couldn't pross border be possible with fiat as well if igaming is made legal in the US?

1.  not so.  i think gamblers, if given a choice, would prefer to remain anonymous.
2.  payout speed can clearly be an issue if you read other's posts below.  why bother with traditional banking slowness and higher fees if you don't have to?
3.  stock mkt speculators do this all the time when investing in overseas markets.  they try to win on the investment itself as well as a strengthening currency.  why would gamblers be any different?
4.  if provably fair was important to the big casinos, why aren't they implementing those policies now?
5.  again, BTC allows one to play internationally w/o currency exchanges.  can't do that with USD's w/o fees.

[KTE]

1.  not so.  i think gamblers, if given a choice, would prefer to remain anonymous.
2.  payout speed can clearly be an issue if you read other's posts below.  why bother with traditional banking slowness and higher fees if you don't have to?
3.  stock mkt speculators do this all the time when investing in overseas markets.  they try to win on the investment itself as well as a strengthening currency.  why would gamblers be any different?
4.  if provably fair was important to the big casinos, why aren't they implementing those policies now?
5.  again, BTC allows one to play internationally w/o currency exchanges.  can't do that with USD's w/o fees.

1. I never cared about anonymity when gambling, and I'm a pretty hardcore gambler. At the very least, I don't think it's enough a bonus to leave the confines of regulated, safe gambling.
2. I agree that it's better to be faster and cheaper, but it's a minor issue compared to the safety of regulation.
3. Because gamblers care about gambling, not about speculating with investments. Sure if they can store their online poker credit easily, in a regulated way, as bitcoins, they will. But to jump ship to unregulated seas? I don't think so.
4. This doesn't really have anything to do with BTC
5. But regulated international online casinos can offer payouts via forex anywhere .. the fees are relativery minor payment for the apparent safety of your funds.

I'm saying that if Bitcoin is an option in a regulated online casino, I feel it has potential due to lower fees, instant access to funds and so on. If unregulated, I think you vastly underestimate the negative aspect of not being able to completely trust the casino or the watching eye of regulation.

Ordinary people like being safe. Most of us in the Bitcoin world are in the small minority in how much risk we can tolerate.

[pikeadz]

In reality, I don't think it matters where they play.

If Nevada and AC accept bitcoin, great.  Lots of money will move in.

If they don't, but still offer online gaming, all the offshore joints will need to step up their game and give us a reason to use them as opposed to, for example, an established operation like MGM should they offer it.  Either way, it doesn't matter because SOMEONE is going to adopt it, which will open the floodgates.

tl;dr:  The floodgates are about to be opened.  From which entrance, it doesn't matter.

[cypherdoc]

1.  not so.  i think gamblers, if given a choice, would prefer to remain anonymous.
2.  payout speed can clearly be an issue if you read other's posts below.  why bother with traditional banking slowness and higher fees if you don't have to?
3.  stock mkt speculators do this all the time when investing in overseas markets.  they try to win on the investment itself as well as a strengthening currency.  why would gamblers be any different?
4.  if provably fair was important to the big casinos, why aren't they implementing those policies now?
5.  again, BTC allows one to play internationally w/o currency exchanges.  can't do that with USD's w/o fees.

1. I never cared about anonymity when gambling, and I'm a pretty hardcore gambler. At the very least, I don't think it's enough a bonus to leave the confines of regulated, safe gambling.
2. I agree that it's better to be faster and cheaper, but it's a minor issue compared to the safety of regulation.
3. Because gamblers care about gambling, not about speculating with investments. Sure if they can store their online poker credit easily, in a regulated way, as bitcoins, they will. But to jump ship to unregulated seas? I don't think so.
4. This doesn't really have anything to do with BTC
5. But regulated international online casinos can offer payouts via forex anywhere .. the fees are relativery minor payment for the apparent safety of your funds.

I'm saying that if Bitcoin is an option in a regulated online casino, I feel it has potential due to lower fees, instant access to funds and so on. If unregulated, I think you vastly underestimate the negative aspect of not being able to completely trust the casino or the watching eye of regulation.

Ordinary people like being safe. Most of us in the Bitcoin world are in the small minority in how much risk we can tolerate.

not being a gambler myself, i appreciate your points of view.  i am, though, pretty good at reading what motivates ppl so i still think there will be opportunities for an ethical, unregulated Bitcoin based online casino to prosper based on my points below.

we can agree to disagree.

[adamstgBit]

I don't play poker at seals with clubs because of any other reason other then its convenient and fun to play with bitcoin. I could play anywhere with my VISA card ( I'm not American ) but i play with bitcoin simply because its easy... sending coins VS entering a long forum and trying to get past the verified by VISA...

cashing in or out is simpler...

should be noted i never paid to play online b4 bitcoin...

[cypherdoc]

and why would you want to leave your CC info on their website or even enter it if you don't have to?

[steamboat]

nevada is nevada. there are 50 more states.

orly?

[KTE]

we can agree to disagree.

True, will be fun to see what happens regardless of who's right.

[CurbsideProphet]

nevada is nevada. there are 50 more states.

Math fail.

[CurbsideProphet]

I don't see the benefit of bitcoin online poker over fiat online poker if both are legal. I think the assumption that people would for some reason flock to BTC in this case is overly optimistic.

If online gambling becomes legal in the US nationwide, it's a definite setback to BTC. It's a pretty straightforward case, really.

Let's just hope it stays illegal long enough for the sake of my BTC holdings.

let me repeat what i said below:

1.  anonymity
2.  fast payout
3.  dealing in an appreciating currency
4.  provably fair
5.  cross border

Anonymity is a big feature.

Fast payout and with minimal transaction expense.

Appreciating currency is interesting, on one hand I can see where the average gambler wouldn't want to have currency translation risk.  The odds are already against them betting against the house, to add another level on to that, I'm not sure how that would go over.  Then again, they're gamblers so maybe they like the extra leverage (most whales play on credit anyway).

Provably fair is a non-issue in terms of large casinos, IMO.  They have too much to lose and already make healthy profits with the house edge.  A company like Las Vegas Sands isn't going to risk their stock price or their reputation tipping the scales even further in their direction when it's not necessary.

Cross border is going to be big as certain states will certainly prohibit online gaming.

[notig]

what about the fact that bitcoin helps gambling because it makes it easier for someone to make a gambling website? This would increase the amount of sites and competition  between online gambling sites and probably even save the gambling site money allowing them to offer better odds.

[cypherdoc]

what about the fact that bitcoin helps gambling because it makes it easier for someone to make a gambling website? This would increase the amount of sites and competition  between online gambling sites and probably even save the gambling site money allowing them to offer better odds.

this is a great point.  everyone here needs to step back and see what is happening.  the big casinos are playing catch up by starting to offer online gambling.  they see a burgeoning online gaming industry that they've been missing out on.  ppl are less willing to leave their homes to travel all the way to Las Vegas to gamble when they can do it from the comfort of their homes much less expensively.  ppl have way less money these days for leisure and will only be willing to play for small amounts and only if it is convenient.  Satoshi Dice is a good example.  cheap, easy fun.

so to pretend that just b/c big casinos decide to use digital USD's to allow online gaming doesn't mean they are going to radically change what's already going on.  what's happening is the decentralization of gambling.  

what's also happening is something bigger than online gambling. ppl are trying to preserve the value of their money and are tired of govt's f*cking around with their money and are beginning to flock into Bitcoin.  if big casinos ignore Bitcoin, they are going to continue to play catch up and could go extinct.

as Bitcoin continues to grow, there is going to be alot more gambling websites popping up left and right that will use Bitcoin to offer all the advantages i've outlined below that we have come to understand and love.  these gamblers won't need or require all the lights, glitz, and fanfare of a Las Vegas.  these sites are going to be leading the pack and the decentralization will continue whether big casinos like it or not.

[twolifeinexile]

what about the fact that bitcoin helps gambling because it makes it easier for someone to make a gambling website? This would increase the amount of sites and competition  between online gambling sites and probably even save the gambling site money allowing them to offer better odds.

And maybe one day gambling become really fair!!! (Who knows, someone make a website just for fun?)

[Monster Tent]

How much does chargeback fraud cost online gambling compared to other merchants ?