Ripple and Trust

[jtimon]

TTBit sent 0.15 BTC to nelisky

At all times TTBit held more than enough Bitstamp IOUs. Could TTBit have sent the BTC IOU if I didn't trust TTBit/BTC?

For TTBit to be able to send 0.15 BTC to nelisky...

1) nelisky previously trusts TTBit/BTC

or

2) nelisky previously trusts bitstamp/BTC (which TTBit currently holds)

[TTBit]

TTBit sent 0.15 BTC to nelisky

At all times TTBit held more than enough Bitstamp IOUs. Could TTBit have sent the BTC IOU if I didn't trust TTBit/BTC?

For TTBit to be able to send 0.15 BTC to nelisky...

1) nelisky previously trusts TTBit/BTC

or

2) nelisky previously trusts bitstamp/BTC (which TTBit currently holds)

These are the only BTC balances I have. (Bitstamp is rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B). I would think it should work, yes? Or is more information required?



I have extended a small amount of btc trust to many forum members. No open orders.

[JoelKatz]

We believe we fixed the bug that was causing paths not to be found or inadequate paths to be selected. Please let me know if you're still experiencing the problem.

[nelisky]

It's pretty much the exact same, I'm afraid. Full amount (0.15) complains about partial amounts, less (0.1) complains about fees.

I created another wallet for holding funds for one of my services, and for playing with the RPC interface. I was trying to make payments in very much the same manner, i.e:
- Deposited BTC to Bitstamp
- Withdrawn from Bitstamp to Ripple
- Tried to send from Ripple to another account that trusts Bitstamp (but not the sender)

{'Account': 'rKLw2zHgA31nRZN3erfZkfR8uhAkQ8s95P', 'Destination': u'rGwUWgN5BEg3QGNY3RX2HfYowjUTZdid3E', 'Amount': {'currency': u'BTC', 'value': '0.019960', 'issuer': u'rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B'}, 'TransactionType': 'Payment'}

{u'status': u'success', u'type': u'response', u'result': {u'tx_json': {u'status': u'invalid', u'Account': u'rKLw2zHgA31nRZN3erfZkfR8uhAkQ8s95P', u'Fee': u'10', u'hash': u'097BDC7AA77F3FDF7A73D850D69F70AEF8AC7705E2616D5BB6E287EB3886B183', u'Sequence': 10, u'SigningPubKey': u'02BCB4677183FD6B5654E10AED5AD04007480950C2652852DFAE4AE4C98A9D3EF0', u'Destination': u'rGwUWgN5BEg3QGNY3RX2HfYowjUTZdid3E', u'Amount': {u'currency': u'BTC', u'value': u'0.01996', u'issuer': u'rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B'}, u'Flags': 0, u'TxnSignature': u'30450220395913ABE851C103E72C8F29531EFF745B82C35DCE6DB1A22E8B78D24B71032B0221009 89E7089D9A0D357908DDB78C9052F74B8FB81C7F2B847677B75F02CF80E4489', u'TransactionType': u'Payment'}, u'engine_result_message': u'Path could not send full amount.', u'engine_result_code': 101, u'tx_blob': u'1200002200000000240000000A61D4071759F6F8C00000000000000000000000000042544300000 000000A20B3C85F482532A9578DBB3950B85CA06594D168400000000000000A732102BCB4677183 FD6B5654E10AED5AD04007480950C2652852DFAE4AE4C98A9D3EF0744730450220395913ABE851C 103E72C8F29531EFF745B82C35DCE6DB1A22E8B78D24B71032B022100989E7089D9A0D357908DDB 78C9052F74B8FB81C7F2B847677B75F02CF80E44898114C9122B5BAFD0FF74863351B569DF2894B 6A011FE8314A6473D67D54E36ED960CC45526D78345C96FAE5A', u'engine_result': u'tecPATH_PARTIAL'}}

The rKLw account has 0.15 btc IOU from Bitstamp, the rGwU account trusts Bitstamp for 1 BTC, the rvYA account is Bitstamp. Am I doing something wrong or is this just another case of bad path resolve?

[JoelKatz]

The only BTC funds that rKLw2zHgA31nRZN3erfZkfR8uhAkQ8s95P holds are 0.1 rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B IOUs. The issuer of those IOUs charges a .2% transfer fee when its IOUs are moved from one customer to another, so the most you can deliver is 0.0998003992015968 BTC.

[nelisky]

The only BTC funds that rKLw2zHgA31nRZN3erfZkfR8uhAkQ8s95P holds are 0.1 rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B IOUs. The issuer of those IOUs charges a .2% transfer fee when its IOUs are moved from one customer to another, so the most you can deliver is 0.0998003992015968 BTC.

Yes, 0.1, sorry for confusing things. 0.15 was on the other use case. Still, if you look at the transfer I'm attempting you'll see I only try to move 0.019960 BTC (that's 0.02 minus the 0.2%) and that fails. I try a second transfer for 0.08 minus 0.2% and that fails in exactly the same way. I never try to move more than 0.0998.

I'll try everything from the start in a bit and will let you know if the result is somehow different.

[nelisky]

Everything is failing just the same, I'm afraid.

So the workflow that is failing is, in a nutshell:

walletA trusts bitstamp for 1 BTC
walletB trusts bitstamp for 1 BTC
wallet A gets a 0.1 BTC transfer from bitstamp
wallet A cannot send any BTC to wallet B - Paths are calculated but when sending one of partial path or fee insufficient will be thrown.

Are you able to run the workflow described yourself?

[edit] - above is the simplified workflow that is failing now, the original issue was slightly more complicated:

walletA trusts bitstamp for 1 BTC
walletB trusts walletA for 1 BTC
walletB trusts bitstamp for 1 BTC
walletA gets a 0.1 BTC transfer from bitstamp
walletA sends 0.05 BTC to walletB - it appears as walletA BTC IOU
walletB cannot send any BTC to bitstamp - Paths are calculated but when sending one of partial path or fee insufficient will be thrown.

[Liam W]

tldr: Ripple doesn't require anymore trust than bitcoin
I see a lot of people misunderstanding the way Ripple works so I'm going to attempt to clarify.

There are two pieces to the ripple system, XRP and IOUs.

XRP works essentially like bitcoin. No counter party risk. You can send xrp to anyone with a ripple account. No trust etc.

The IOUs are more complicated. Every IOU has an Issuer and a Currency. The Issuer is simply a ripple account. You can only hold IOUs from issuers you have agreed to trust.

A gateway is some business that has agreed to issue and redeem ripple IOUs. You take your money to a gateway and the gateway gives you a ripple IOU. You can send this IOU to other people, trade it for XRP or BTC or whatever. You can take your IOU back to the gateway and the gateway will send you money. This is essentially what paypal or dwolla or banks do now.

This is the same as sending USD to mtgox. You are trusting mtgox to the amount you have sent in. You can send that USD to another person that has chosen to trust mtgox in the form of a mtgox code.

So you can see that Ripple doesn't require more trust or counter party risk then you are already used to.

The powerful thing is that Ripple links all these gateways and that there is an exchange in Ripple where you can swap these various IOUs so you can trade between all kinds of currencies and issuers.


We hope to explain things better on ripple.com soon.

Hmm, I think this confused me more to be quite honest Although I do actually understand now

Liam

[chriswen]

Okay, not sure if you solved this yet, but destination codes might be mandatory for sending to bitstamp.

[mobydick]

I can't seem to get a donation and I'm trying to write up a blog post about XRP

[ahbritto]

Okay, not sure if you solved this yet, but destination codes might be mandatory for sending to bitstamp.

Destination tags are mandatory when sending to Bitstamp. Without a destination tag, Bitstamp would not know which account to credit.