Placing Buy and Sell orders at same time

[Beyn]

I've been thinking about this for a few hours now and I cant get to the conclusion where the logical error is.

Why cant you just place a sell AND a buy order at the same time and abuse the spread?

Obviously this would work only for coins with a spread bigger then the fees you pay.

Lets take a very simple example: Take any shitcoin from yobit which sells at 1 Sat and Buys at 2 Sat

Place Buy for 1 Sat
Place Sell for 2 Sat

.. wait till your orders get filled ...

Or lets take even Bitcoin. If the spread is bigger then the fee (0.2 % mostly ? ) then place buyorders 1 Sat above current buy + sellorder 1 Sat below current sell. < for this an automated bot could be used.

Where is the logical error.. or why is it not beeing done ?!?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Because you would be risking nothing and markets don't work this way.  And everyone would be doing it and then there would be no spreads anymore.

[Beyn]

Because you would be risking nothing and markets don't work this way.  And everyone would be doing it and then there would be no spreads anymore.

so why isnt everybodt doing it?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Because you would be risking nothing and markets don't work this way.  And everyone would be doing it and then there would be no spreads anymore.

so why isnt everybodt doing it?

Because you can't sell something you haven't bought yet.  And short selling I'm aware of, but this is different.

[Beyn]

Well obviously you would need to buy it first. But that should not be an issue.

What am I missing?

This is not gonna work on big exchanges with very small spreads. But just look at yobit or even some shitcoins at polo/bittrex that have huge spreads...

Am I seeing something wrong or is it just not profitable enough?

[pooya87]

what you are explaining is the classic way of buying low and selling high. everybody is doing this but your exact method has some flaws in its logic:
1) shitcoins + big spread = nobody is trading that which means your orders will never get filled (it may even take a month to get filled)
2) when you place and order it will go in some kind of Queue, meaning those who have placed orders before you will get their orders filled and you will wait until it is your turn

[Serpens66]

@Beyn:
Of course you can do that and there are several people who doing exactly that with their bots. E.g at Kraken.com EUR/BTC are many 0.01BTC orders scattered on the BID and ASK side.

This seems to be profitable, otherwise this user won't do it since a very long time.
But I'm skeptical. If the market moves up (or down) too much, all your sell orders are filled, but your buy orders not (buy orders are filled, but sell orders not).
So obviously it is risky to use amonts higher than 0.01 BTC, which means it will be only very small profit, with a quite high risk if the price is too volatile in one direction.

[romero121]

Because you would be risking nothing and markets don't work this way.  And everyone would be doing it and then there would be no spreads anymore.

so why isnt everybodt doing it?

Because you can't sell something you haven't bought yet.  And short selling I'm aware of, but this is different.

Yeah it might be possible with few exchange sites. Most websites don't allow users to do trading till they have the respective amount within their wallet connected to the trading profile.

[moviebuff777]

If you already hold some of the coins, you can put orders in to sell it and also have orders to buy (if you have a balance to buy with).  The trick is to have a big enough spread to make a profit and cover the fees.

[odolvlobo]

Why cant you just place a sell AND a buy order at the same time and abuse the spread?

You can do that. Nothing is preventing you from doing that. There is a drawback. It works as long as the price stays between your trades, but if it goes above or below, you could lose money.

[bitmarket.net]

you can definitely do that (providing that you either buy first, or already have some coins to sell).

it will only work out though if there will be other people willing to buy/sell from you at these prices.
if you have a bid offer in the market and it gets filled, it could be because the market is going down.
you will be left with your sell order in the market that will not get filled, until the market starts going up again.

it very well may happen, but it is a trading just like any other.

also, keep in mind that on most of the exchanges you will pay a commission (some exchanges don't charge for the maker's orders) - it might be higher than your profit from such trade.

[bitdumper]

This seems like concept of market makers. You can do this, many people are doing it , but it is only profitable when there is a huge volume and market is in a range. If its trending you will 200% loose.

[Bitcoinbee]

it's a fast break when you do buy and sell at the same time.  but one has to be a known and trusted trader to have a regular buying of btc's and always ready to sell when a buyer is at hand.  The rate of profit might as well be a slightly low but if the flow of sold btc is fast still you can make a lot of profits.  BTC

[Amph]

this is the same trick that it is done by those that sell on themselves, to increase the volume, and instigate a panic buy

you need a bot to do it efficiently

[Bitcoinbee]

I've been thinking about this for a few hours now and I cant get to the conclusion where the logical error is.

Why cant you just place a sell AND a buy order at the same time and abuse the spread?

Obviously this would work only for coins with a spread bigger then the fees you pay.

Lets take a very simple example: Take any shitcoin from yobit which sells at 1 Sat and Buys at 2 Sat

Place Buy for 1 Sat
Place Sell for 2 Sat

.. wait till your orders get filled ...

Or lets take even Bitcoin. If the spread is bigger then the fee (0.2 % mostly ? ) then place buyorders 1 Sat above current buy + sellorder 1 Sat below current sell. < for this an automated bot could be used.

Where is the logical error.. or why is it not beeing done ?!?

Why cant you just place a sell AND a buy order at the same time and abuse the spread?

You can do that. Nothing is preventing you from doing that. There is a drawback. It works as long as the price stays between your trades, but if it goes above or below, you could lose money.

buy and sell orders at the same time can be manage if you got the right and complete staff to do it and also the resources.  Monitoring is important.

[NeuroticFish]

Where is the logical error.. or why is it not beeing done ?!?

It can be done only if you own the coins you want to sell and the price for the coins you want to buy.
I think that I had at some point in the past sell orders and buy orders in the same time, for the same coin, on the same market.

So with some coins to start with and a bot that does the adjustments for you, you should be OK, if the market is stable.

[duts_bg]

@Beyn:
Of course you can do that and there are several people who doing exactly that with their bots. E.g at Kraken.com EUR/BTC are many 0.01BTC orders scattered on the BID and ASK side.

This seems to be profitable, otherwise this user won't do it since a very long time.
But I'm skeptical. If the market moves up (or down) too much, all your sell orders are filled, but your buy orders not (buy orders are filled, but sell orders not).
So obviously it is risky to use amonts higher than 0.01 BTC, which means it will be only very small profit, with a quite high risk if the price is too volatile in one direction.

You have reason to be skeptical. Usually, those who use the bot put it on both sides, although there are exceptions. In general, these bots are difficult to adjust. Quite often there are several bots owned by different players. If you have enough patience to play against them manually, there are ways to make them to outplay and you make a profit. If you do not want to feel the owners of the bot and to shut it down, doing this for a while and then waited to pass the time.

[HeroCat]

Then you will have two choices - buy option is right one or sale option is right one, so one of them will bring you profit, another one loose. So more simple is to choose only one option - result will be the same in fact. 

[ArafaA]

There is a modern pot doing this kind of job which is specifically carried out by a development team running a shit coin , in the end the market of that shit coin is moving up with a high volume & price . in between the sell & buy some real investors enter the queue .them the dump is coming everyone lose but the dev team of the shit coin win.

[Bitcoinbee]

Then you will have two choices - buy option is right one or sale option is right one, so one of them will bring you profit, another one loose. So more simple is to choose only one option - result will be the same in fact. 

buying bitcoins at the same time selling bitcoins depends on how much bitcoins you have. buying bitcoins must be continues from the beginning of the business meaning when you buy a bit coin now you are not gonna sell it today use the bitcoin that you had bought previously which has a lower buying rate than the current rate so you can sell it with profit that's why one needs a bunch of staffs and a bunch of bitcoins.  Staffs to monitor and manage the business and bitcoins to play the business.