Memory is cheap -

[yayayo]

Irony alert lol. Cheap RAM is an argument for Lightning channels, not Gavin Andresen BloatCoin. Duh, OP. Duh.

Exactly.

The BloatCoiners love to make fancy charts. They are experts at linear extrapolation with very limited real data or by showing data irrelevant to the issues that are being debated. Remember that alarming graph that showed hitting the block limit with all painted red and drama? Guess what: Nothing happened.

To repeat it here for the 100th time: Memory is not the bottleneck. The bottleneck is the network.

Also in general, assuming that capacity increases of the past decades can be extrapolated into the future without any decrease in the growth rate is science fiction. There are physical limits in miniaturization. We are already very close to these limits.

ya.ya.yo!

[Soros Shorts]

I think the larger problem is network bandwidth rather than hard device capacity. Even with high speed Internet connection (> 20 Mbit/sec) it can take a couple of days to download the block chain from scratch.

lol.  You only have to download the chain one time - forever.  

People sit in their living room all over the planet streaming movies every night and you worry about 2MB every ten minutes?  Clearly you failed your math A levels.  

No you don't just download the chain and be done with it. A full node does not only download blocks - it also receives and relays unconfirmed transactions and sends out blocks to other SPV clients.

Your node could easily send out terabytes of data in 1 month if you don't restrict it.

This node has been up for only 6 days and has already sent out 144 GB.

[Lauda]

lol.  You only have to download the chain one time - forever.  

People sit in their living room all over the planet streaming movies every night and you worry about 2MB every ten minutes?  Clearly you failed your math A levels.  

Just another example of a person who clearly has no idea what he's talking about. No idea how I missed this idiotic post on my first visit to this thread. You obviously don't even know how nodes work. why nodes spend this much bandwidth. Seems like the original statement was correct (more or less) and I had misinterpreted it.

No you don't just download the chain and be done with it. A full node does not only download blocks - it also receives and relays unconfirmed transactions and sends out blocks to other SPV clients.
Your node could easily send out terabytes of data in 1 month if you don't restrict it.

Correct. Even nodes with lower upload connections and total number of connections send out a lot of data. In April my node spent ~150GB of data.
Update: Removed initial statement as it was a misinterpretation.

[Genius Einstein]

I know it is such an amazing thing

[TKeenan]

lol.  You only have to download the chain one time - forever.  

People sit in their living room all over the planet streaming movies every night and you worry about 2MB every ten minutes?  Clearly you failed your math A levels.  

Just another example of a person who clearly has no idea what he's talking about. No idea how I missed this idiotic post on my first visit to this thread. You obviously don't even know how nodes work.

No you don't just download the chain and be done with it. A full node does not only download blocks - it also receives and relays unconfirmed transactions and sends out blocks to other SPV clients.
Your node could easily send out terabytes of data in 1 month if you don't restrict it.

Correct. Even nodes with lower upload connections and total number of connections send out a lot of data. In April my node spent ~150GB of data.

lol!  Fuck you.  I definitely know what I am talking about.  144GB is NOTHING!!  You must be a very cheap son of a bitch to complain about this bandwidth since one can buy unlimited for about $100/yr.  Your provider is in Zimbabwei so you pay more.  

You ONLY have to download the chain once.  True, a full node relays shit all day long - but my original claim that you only have to download the chain once is correct.  So now who is the fuck wad that doesn't know what they are talking about?   That would be you.  Moron.

Your node sent out 150GB?  That has nothing to do with memory asshole.  Read the title of the thread.  Now who doesn't know anything.  Bandwidth has nothing to do with memory.  My claim is the memory is cheap.  Bandwidth is also cheap but that is not what the post is about.  By the way, you only have to download the blockchain once.  Get it dumb-ass?  Just because you sent out 150GB last month, your memory requirements didn't go up.  that is your bandwidth requirements.  How many times did you download the entire blockchain last month?  ZERO!  That's right, because my first claim was in fact correct.  You only have to download the blockchain once.  So a full node has some bandwidth issues - OK - great topic go start your own thread.  That has nothing to do with the fact that a HUGE blockchain can easily be accommodated on a bunch of cheap memory.

Lauda - you are a fuck wad.  When you start telling people they don't know what they are talking about - and then you do change the topic -  you are total bullshit.  Stick with the topic - memory is cheap, the blockchain can get huge and it doesn't cost much to accommodate it.  If you have having trouble with bandwidth - get a better subscription.  But don't say I don't know what I am talking about because I know the difference between memory and bandwidth.  Fuck off.

[MyBTT]

I think the larger problem is network bandwidth rather than hard device capacity. Even with high speed Internet connection (> 20 Mbit/sec) it can take a couple of days to download the block chain from scratch.

Yeah that is definitely the bigger problem. Where I live, the speed of internet is very very slow. It is like 10mbit/sec. I really hate it and I hope the internet companies do something about it.

[Lauda]

144GB is NOTHING!!

144GB is nothing indeed (depending where you are), however you've missed the "in 6 days" part.

You must be a very cheap son of a bitch to complain about this bandwidth since one can buy unlimited for about $100/yr.

Please link me to the ISP with an unlimited plan with decent speeds that is <$10 a month. Otherwise this is just hyperbolic nonsense.

You ONLY have to download the chain once.  

The initial download is not what the problem is nor the problem with your statement:

People sit in their living room all over the planet streaming movies every night and you worry about 2MB every ten minutes?

Assuming that only 2MB will be spent every 10 minutes is very wrong.
There's really no need to resort to childish behavior because I've called you out on this mistake (note: Nobody said that you don't know the difference between memory and bandwidth).

Where I live, the speed of internet is very very slow. It is like 10mbit/sec.

People advocating for contentious HF's don't really care about that apparently. I can also picture memory being more expensive in those areas, am I right (storage can be quite cheap but only depending on where you're from)?

Actually that node is hosted in an Azure VM in their Japan East datacenter and costs me $120-$180 a month to run.

How? I was told that it was only that expensive in Zimbabwei
Update: Several updates to post; more are probably coming.

[Soros Shorts]

lol!  Fuck you.  I definitely know what I am talking about.  144GB is NOTHING!!  You must be a very cheap son of a bitch to complain about this bandwidth since one can buy unlimited for about $100/yr.  Your provider is in Zimbabwei so you pay more.  

Actually that particular node is hosted in an Azure VM in their Japan East datacenter and costs me $120-$180 a month to run, depending mostly on how much bandwidth I use that month.

[TKeenan]

Assuming that only 2MB will be spent every 10 minutes is very wrong.

That was my assumption for movies - it was not an estimate of a full node bandwidth.  

Bandwidth is still cheap.  Your Azure package includes LOTS of other services - in addition to the bandwidth.  You are paying this price for the package of services.  You can have VERY cheap bandwidth - if that is all you need.  Your fancy Azure package is what is expensive - not the bandwidth.  

There's really no need to resort to childish behavior because I've called you out on this mistake (note: Nobody said that you don't know the difference between memory and bandwidth).

Actually, there is a need to resort to childish behaviour.  When you start your argument with 'doesn't know what he is talking about' - you've already abandon a logical response and started a personal attack.  You therefore are the childish asshole and need arises to address childish assholes with stuff they understand well.  I am just trying to get on your level my friend.

I am saying you don't know the difference between memory and bandwidth.  The post is about cheap memory.  Look at the chart.  Bandwidth is another issue - if you live in Zimbabwei.  Bandwidth is very cheap everywhere else.  Don't point to your Gucci Azure package - that fancy VM and other services (i.e. 100% uptime) is what really cost money - not the bandwidth.  

[Lauda]

That was my assumption for movies - it was not an estimate of a full node bandwidth.  

Well, then it is technically correct (similar (but not the same) with a non-node full client).

Bandwidth is still cheap.  Your Azure package includes LOTS of other services - in addition to the bandwidth.  You are paying this price for the package of services.  You can have VERY cheap bandwidth - if that is all you need.  Your fancy Azure package is what is expensive - not the bandwidth.  

I'm not using Azure. This node is located in a remote location with a normal domestic connection (albeit, almost the top tier that is available). The last time that I've talked to a higher ISP representative (which was 2-3 years ago) they've told me that upload bandwidth is quite expensive and this is why their upload speed was much lower compared to the download one.

When you start your argument with 'doesn't know what he is talking about' - you've already abandon a logical response and started a personal attack.

That's not the intend behind the statement; I've just 'written down' the impression that I had. I've 'pulled it back' as it was a misinterpretation; there was no need to be hyperbolic about it.

I am saying you don't know the difference between memory and bandwidth.  Don't point to your Gucci Azure package - that fancy VM and other services (i.e. 100% uptime) is what really cost money - not the bandwidth.  

That would be a ridiculous statement (as my background is IT). I think that you're confusing Soros Shorts's node (which is on Azure) and mine (residential connection).
Back to memory: It does not cost much (even though we should not generalize), especially in 1st world countries (e.g. USA). It might be a bigger sum for people located in 3rd world countries. My node is currently on a 250 GB drive which I've picked up for $20 and there's plenty of space left (70+ GB).

[TKeenan]

That was my assumption for movies - it was not an estimate of a full node bandwidth.  

Well, then it is technically correct (similar (but not the same) with a non-node full client).

Bandwidth is still cheap.  Your Azure package includes LOTS of other services - in addition to the bandwidth.  You are paying this price for the package of services.  You can have VERY cheap bandwidth - if that is all you need.  Your fancy Azure package is what is expensive - not the bandwidth.  

I'm not using Azure. This node is located in a remote location with a normal domestic connection (albeit, almost the top tier that is available). The last time that I've talked to a higher ISP representative (which was 2-3 years ago) they've told me that upload bandwidth is quite expensive and this is why their upload speed was much lower compared to the download one.

When you start your argument with 'doesn't know what he is talking about' - you've already abandon a logical response and started a personal attack.

That's not the intend behind the statement; I've just 'written down' the impression that I had. I've 'pulled it back' as it was a misinterpretation; there was no need to be hyperbolic about it.

I am saying you don't know the difference between memory and bandwidth.  Don't point to your Gucci Azure package - that fancy VM and other services (i.e. 100% uptime) is what really cost money - not the bandwidth.  

That would be a ridiculous statement (as my background is IT). I think that you're confusing Soros Shorts's node (which is on Azure) and mine (residential connection).
Back to memory: It does not cost much (even though we should not generalize), especially in 1st world countries (e.g. USA). It might be a bigger sum for people located in 3rd world countries. My node is currently on a 250 GB drive which I've picked up for $20 and there's plenty of space left (70+ GB).

Glad to see you've admitted the errors of your ways and now agree with the original post.  It takes a big person to admit they were wrong.  Next time - don't launch your disagreement with a personal attack.  Sorry your upload bandwidth prices (from 2 years ago) are bad.  However, on a decent provider they remain cheap - even in view of the high load that full nodes demand.  Now get out of Zimbabwei if you want to run a node.  Maybe move to a decent country like Germany or Holland. 

[hhanh00]

Somehow we worry about going to 2MB/block for fear of 'bloat'

Yes ... because of the network usage ...

yet this is how much memory costs:

How does RAM help my bandwidth cost?

[Lauda]

Glad to see you've admitted the errors of your ways and now agree with the original post.  It takes a big person to admit they were wrong.  

I see this as a virtue, and as a rational person (I'm trying) it makes sense to admit to wrong and try to improve.

Next time - don't launch your disagreement with a personal attack.  

Sorry your upload bandwidth prices (from 2 years ago) are bad.  

I have not listed any prices? I have just elaborated as to why the internet speed in some countries are (e.g. 50/5) as I've asked.

Now get out of Zimbabwei if you want to run a node.

I don't live in such a country. My node works fine, even though it is not as useful as Soros Shorts's node (mine is not able to provide that much data).

How does RAM help my bandwidth cost?

RAM is not the only type of memory. OP is talking about storage.

[Quantus]

Its not memory were worried about its the bandwidth, latency and orphan rates.  

[poncho32]

I think the larger problem is network bandwidth rather than hard device capacity. Even with high speed Internet connection (> 20 Mbit/sec) it can take a couple of days to download the block chain from scratch.

lol.  You only have to download the chain one time - forever.  

People sit in their living room all over the planet streaming movies every night and you worry about 2MB every ten minutes?  Clearly you failed your math A levels.  

No you don't just download the chain and be done with it. A full node does not only download blocks - it also receives and relays unconfirmed transactions and sends out blocks to other SPV clients.

Your node could easily send out terabytes of data in 1 month if you don't restrict it.

This node has been up for only 6 days and has already sent out 144 GB.

How do you restrict the amount of data a node can process?

I want to set up a node but the location I live in has poor internet connectivity. The only way I can set up a node is through a server hosting provider. There's a limit on how much data I can afford to pay for each month, so I want to put a cap on my monthly data.

[TKeenan]

Also in general, assuming that capacity increases of the past decades can be extrapolated into the future without any decrease in the growth rate is science fiction. There are physical limits in miniaturization. We are already very close to these limits.

25 years ago when circuit feature size was 1 micron - we were saying the exact same thing.  I really don't know how anyone is doing 14um.  That seems totally impossible.  But - whatever, they are doing it.  

I don't think memory capacity will continue to go down like the chart for the last 20 years.  It will go down however.  Now, memory is so fucking cheap it is shocking.  I once paid $100 / Megabyte (RAM).  Now when I buy 128GB flash for $30 I laugh my head off.  

As for bandwidth - the arguments here are hard to accept.  Some large portion of the Internet bandwidth is streaming porn.  I am pretty sure the purpose of Bitcoin exceeds the purpose of watching another very large black man vigorously pound some poor teenage pussy into oblivion.  We already have very significant bandwidth availability.  Maybe some of it needs to be redirected - and it will as soon as the 'importance' of bitcoin transactions exceeds the 'importance' of having a look at sex sites.  

[Erzatium]

Yeah that's not strange why it's getting cheaper and cheaper because new technology is coming.
There are allot of things that changed in a short period not only the memory went smaller and larger amount of GB or TB.
But the whole computer has grown very strong.

[TKeenan]

Memory in the past wasn't cheap but because people can make smaller chips with more memory on it. The
old ones will become very cheap. And after a year the newer ones gets cheaper because there is a new
generation.

Yeah that's not strange why it's getting cheaper and cheaper because new technology is coming.
There are allot of things that changed in a short period not only the memory went smaller and larger amount of GB or TB.
But the whole computer has grown very strong.

It sure is nice to have you two geniuses to help out.

[~Bitcoin~]

I think the larger problem is network bandwidth rather than hard device capacity. Even with high speed Internet connection (> 20 Mbit/sec) it can take a couple of days to download the block chain from scratch.

i think better solution for this could be cd or pendrive with the copy of ledger which can be released on yearly basis. So that the one who like to host own wallet can download remaining few blocks within few hours.

[Lauda]

25 years ago when circuit feature size was 1 micron - we were saying the exact same thing.  I really don't know how anyone is doing 14um.  That seems totally impossible.  But - whatever, they are doing it.  

The problem arises when you reach the size of 1 atom.

I don't think memory capacity will continue to go down like the chart for the last 20 years.  It will go down however.  Now, memory is so fucking cheap it is shocking.  I once paid $100 / Megabyte (RAM).  Now when I buy 128GB flash for $30 I laugh my head off.  

As for bandwidth - the arguments here are hard to accept.

Again, it comes down to where the user is from. While $30 might seem like a small amount in the US, it is a big amount in remote places in the world. It comes down to whether and by how much you want to restrict node usage. Do you want nodes only to be run by people in 1st world countries?

i think better solution for this could be cd or pendrive with the copy of ledger which can be released on yearly basis. So that the one who like to host own wallet can download remaining few blocks within few hours.

Nothing prevents you from selling one, but it will get outdated pretty quickly.