Them BFL Cowboys

[Frizz23]

That's what Josh posted yesterday on BFL forums:

The ASIC team is a third party we have contracted with to do the design and routing on the chip itself, they are located in California.

I don't have the specifics on the testing procedure, so I can't answer that. They don't need 1000 chips to do the testing, but we can't just send part of a wafer and 1 wafer is around 1000 chips. Testing chips and testing devices are two entirely different things. The testing that's being done on the chips is to make sure the chip design is correct, not whether or not a particular chip works. This round of testing does not care if any individual chip is bad, we just want to know if the new BGA packages has any problems in the design/mask.

It confirms what most of us already suspected/knew:

1) BFL is just a chaotic bunch of Cowboys with a great "can do" attitude (one has to admit this!), that somehow managed to get the funding done (e.g. with peoples pre-order money). But they have no clue whatsoever about technology, hence why they outsourced everything. Some of the egg heads fucked them over (which must have been pretty easy because BFL is a pure sales&marketing company), giving them wrong estimates (time & money). Hence all the fabricated updates from Josh and all the delays.

2) Whenever people asked Josh "do you have a working prototype?" he ignored them, insulted them or weasled his way out. Now we have the confirmation that, up until today, BFL does not know whether their chips work - or not. They do not even know if the design is OK.

5 month after the promised ("honest abe") shipping date BFL has no idea if their design is OK ?!?! WTF!

As I always said: They lie to us on purpose!
I am furious now ...  

[1714776541]

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[Herodes]

I'm glad I'm not invested with these cowboys.

[greyhawk]

At this point does BFL know if this supposed ASIC team even exists or if there is instead just some dude in Cali
- charging them for some supposed ASIC design,
- "testing" the nonexistent design on a "simulator", thus determining a need for repackaging
- charging them again for supposedly redesigning the ASIC to account for the repackaging
- stringing them along with renders of empty asic designs (see the render of an essentially empty chip BFL showed in January),
- milking them again and again for so called bullet runs and expedited handling (that invariably never seem to happen),
- is laughing all the way to the bank while Josh is staring like a deer into the headlights of the incoming failure train.

Bonus points if the dude in Cali is an extended member of Familia Vasileiadis siphoning off the funds out of the company for Sonny and Chris' benefit while the rest of BFL including Josh have no idea they are being had.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

At this point does BFL know if this supposed ASIC team even exists or if there is instead just some dude in Cali
- charging them for some supposed ASIC design,
- "testing" the nonexistent design on a "simulator", thus determining a need for repackaging
- charging them again for supposedly redesigning the ASIC to account for the repackaging
- stringing them along with renders of empty asic designs (see the render of an essentially empty chip BFL showed in January),
- milking them again and again for so called bullet runs and expedited handling (that invariably never seem to happen),
- is laughing all the way to the bank while Josh is staring like a deer into the headlights of the incoming failure train.

Bonus points if the dude in Cali is an extended member of Familia Vasileiadis siphoning off the funds out of the company for Sonny and Chris' benefit while the rest of BFL including Josh have no idea they are being had.

Honestly, I don't know how they're able to not touch a single satoshi of the ASIC pre-order funds, currently operating off the profits of the sales of FPGA products (no longer sold) and VC funding which, BTW, funded the FPGA rigs since none of that pre-order money was also not used during development.

We're talking about massive overhead here, and that's if those in upper management (above Josh) are not taking salary. Speaking of salaries, the best case scenario is that no more than a quarter million dollars has been paid out to the current staff over the past six months, based on prevailing wages and about a dozen personal (no more than 18 employees).

The new warehouse cost is probably their least expense, considering it's a least with a build-to-use clause. Even if the least payment is $3,000/mo (no way it should be more), they could have locked in by paying $36,000 down (year in advance least payments) at the worse case scenario if they couldn't show enough cred to obtain a conventional least. But that's probably not the case, for the Vleisides family has been a fixture around KC for decades.

The above only mentioned to drive the point home that the warehouse cost is one of their least expenses.

That said, unless I figured incorrectly, we're easily at a million dollars that only came from the profit of the FGPA sales and VC funding. Is this possible? Feel free to set me straight on my assessment.

~Bruno K~

[Yogafan00000]

None of this is helpful.

Every company I have ever worked for is a bunch of chaotic cowboys.  Heck, every person I have ever met is basically just muddling through.  We are all just making things up as we go.  REAL life is not like the movies.  BFL just happens to give you more of an insiders view than a regular company ever would, so you can see the frays and cracks of the actual process of getting shit done.

Give it up.  It's like you WANT them to fail for some reason.

Take a hint.   ASIC's DO NOT EXIST YET. (at least before Avalon)  Creating a brand new thing that never existed before is a shit-ton of hard work.  It's going to take time, patience and a bit of luck.  Bad things will happen along the way.  People have died trying to get to the moon.  They didn't cancel NASA after their first few disasters.  They are still at, trying to build satellites and mars rovers and the future.

So I say go for it, as long as they can, as long as it takes. NEVER GIVE UP.

If they do fail, it won't be because of their inadequacies, it will be because people like you have finally gotten to them and they have given up in frustration over the naysayers.  At the end of your life, what will you be able to say you created, or brought to this universe that never existed before?

[Xian01]

ASIC's DO NOT EXIST YET. (at least before Avalon)  Creating a brand new thing that never existed before is a shit-ton of hard work. 

 False. Application Specific Integrated Circuits have been around since the early 80's.

[ralree]

None of this is helpful.

Every company I have ever worked for is a bunch of chaotic cowboys.  Heck, every person I have ever met is basically just muddling through.  We are all just making things up as we go.  REAL life is not like the movies.  BFL just happens to give you more of an insiders view than a regular company ever would, so you can see the frays and cracks of the actual process of getting shit done.

Give it up.  It's like you WANT them to fail for some reason.

Take a hint.   ASIC's DO NOT EXIST YET. (at least before Avalon)  Creating a brand new thing that never existed before is a shit-ton of hard work.  It's going to take time, patience and a bit of luck.  Bad things will happen along the way.  People have died trying to get to the moon.  They didn't cancel NASA after their first few disasters.  They are still at, trying to build satellites and mars rovers and the future.

So I say go for it, as long as they can, as long as it takes. NEVER GIVE UP.

If they do fail, it won't be because of their inadequacies, it will be because people like you have finally gotten to them and they have given up in frustration over the naysayers.  At the end of your life, what will you be able to say you created, or brought to this universe that never existed before?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415979,00.asp

The company started taking pre-orders for the device last year

I wonder if there's a forum full of people bitching and moaning about it not being released...
If you are so concerned with BFL's business practices, why are you still invested in their products?  Pull your orders if you believe them to be so incompetent.

[Syke]

We're talking about massive overhead here, and that's if those in upper management (above Josh) are not taking salary. Speaking of salaries, the best case scenario is that no more than a quarter million dollars has been paid out to the current staff over the past six months, based on prevailing wages and about a dozen personal (no more than 18 employees).

What are 18 employees doing? They haven't had product to work on in months.

[nbtcminer]

I concur with with Yogafan on the "Its almost like you want them to fail" part. As someone who has a vested interest in their upcoming line and in addition to that a potential customer of other bitcoin mining products; I would like to ask you to please stop the FUD. What you are doing is not helpful at all for the community at large nor is it informative.

If and when BFL turns out to be a failure / scam like bitcoinasic.net, that is when it would be appropriate to make comments like they are "cowboys" and bash them into non-existence.

[Yogafan00000]

False. Application Specific Integrated Circuits have been around since the early 80's.

I won't get into a pissing match about this, however, I was referring to bitcoin mining ASICs.  For the sake of brevity, I made the assumption that anyone reading my post would understand this.

Apparently not.

[creativex]

I concur with with Yogafan on the "Its almost like you want them to fail" part. As someone who has a vested interest in their upcoming line and in addition to that a potential customer of other bitcoin mining products; I would like to ask you to please stop the FUD. What you are doing is not helpful at all for the community at large nor is it informative.

If and when BFL turns out to be a failure / scam like bitcoinasic.net, that is when it would be appropriate to make comments like they are "cowboys" and bash them into non-existence.

Wouldn't it be too late to warn unsuspecting investors of the risks/poor company performance at that point?

[fizzisist]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415979,00.asp

The company started taking pre-orders for the device last year

I wonder if there's a forum full of people bitching and moaning about it not being released...
If you are so concerned with BFL's business practices, why are you still invested in their products?  Pull your orders if you believe them to be so incompetent.

Well, to be fair, you may want to read the pre-order page:

Pre-Order the Leap Motion Controller
A limited number of Leap devices are available for pre-order. Your credit card will not be charged until your Leap is shipped. You can cancel your order at any time. Your order can be returned for a full refund within thirty days of shipping.

The Leap Motion Controller will ship beginning May 13.

Emphasis mine.

[tcp_rst]

As I always said: They lie to us on purpose!
I am furious now ... 

You're furious now?  Seems like you've been "furious" for months Frizz. I love how you come here and pretend to be incensed by the latest thing everytime there's a latest thing.  What a tool.  You're just making a fool of yourself.

[becoin]

Pull your orders if you believe them to be so incompetent.

I did it. I'm sooooo lucky. So far I already have 300% profit for NOT having a BFL's ASIC!

[Unacceptable]

Pull your orders if you believe them to be so incompetent.

I did it. I'm sooooo lucky. So far I already have 300% profit for NOT having a BFL's ASIC!

But you didn't get back the EXACT amount of BTC you paid.................so you LOST money,correct    

[nbtcminer]

I concur with with Yogafan on the "Its almost like you want them to fail" part. As someone who has a vested interest in their upcoming line and in addition to that a potential customer of other bitcoin mining products; I would like to ask you to please stop the FUD. What you are doing is not helpful at all for the community at large nor is it informative.

If and when BFL turns out to be a failure / scam like bitcoinasic.net, that is when it would be appropriate to make comments like they are "cowboys" and bash them into non-existence.

Wouldn't it be too late to warn unsuspecting investors of the risks/poor company performance at that point?

If their true intention was to con investors, such warnings would be valid and warranted. However based on the evidence of their past endeavours and in addition to bringing one of CGminer's core developers to actually visit their headquarters in KC; its highly unlikely that they would go through all that effort to con unsuspecting investors.

[Flying Hellfish]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415979,00.asp

The company started taking pre-orders for the device last year

I wonder if there's a forum full of people bitching and moaning about it not being released...
If you are so concerned with BFL's business practices, why are you still invested in their products?  Pull your orders if you believe them to be so incompetent.

Wow what a bad analogy/comparison...

I'd say the reason there's no forum with people screaming blue murder is because the company you linked is not taking "FULL PAYMENT PRE-ORDERS"

Can you see the difference from a consumer POV from pre-ordering a product and not paying for it until its shipped vs full payment pre-orders?  if you need a hint its all in the amount of risk the consumer takes...

[bcpokey]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415979,00.asp

The company started taking pre-orders for the device last year

I wonder if there's a forum full of people bitching and moaning about it not being released...
If you are so concerned with BFL's business practices, why are you still invested in their products?  Pull your orders if you believe them to be so incompetent.

Wow what a bad analogy/comparison...

I'd say the reason there's no forum with people screaming blue murder is because the company you linked is not taking "FULL PAYMENT PRE-ORDERS"

Can you see the difference from a consumer POV from pre-ordering a product and not paying for it until its shipped vs full payment pre-orders?  if you need a hint its all in the amount of risk the consumer takes...

The analogy is awful on every level. No payment until product ships, product isn't even scheduled to ship until May (2+ months into the future), and it only costs $80, half the least costly option BFL offers (1/5th the next step up, less 1/10th the most common option, etc.)

That said, I don't really have much to weigh in on the latest development. I'm not a customer, and I'm fairly glad I'm not, but I don't harbor any ill-will towards BFL, mostly just disappointment. ASICs were exciting and hopeful items to me, and now it all seems like so much scorched earth. I do hope that things turn around, and am excited for the time when everyone focuses on how awesome ASIC mining is. I hope BFL gets its' act together.

[creativex]

I concur with with Yogafan on the "Its almost like you want them to fail" part. As someone who has a vested interest in their upcoming line and in addition to that a potential customer of other bitcoin mining products; I would like to ask you to please stop the FUD. What you are doing is not helpful at all for the community at large nor is it informative.

If and when BFL turns out to be a failure / scam like bitcoinasic.net, that is when it would be appropriate to make comments like they are "cowboys" and bash them into non-existence.

Wouldn't it be too late to warn unsuspecting investors of the risks/poor company performance at that point?

If their true intention was to con investors, such warnings would be valid and warranted. However based on the evidence of their past endeavours and in addition to bringing one of CGminer's core developers to actually visit their headquarters in KC; its highly unlikely that they would go through all that effort to con unsuspecting investors.

Pardon? They've been lying about shipping dates for EIGHT MONTHS...how is that not a con? The evidence of their past endeavors indicates that they're dishonest about shipping dates and power consumption specs. Hey at least they're consistently dishonest though right?

[nbtcminer]

I concur with with Yogafan on the "Its almost like you want them to fail" part. As someone who has a vested interest in their upcoming line and in addition to that a potential customer of other bitcoin mining products; I would like to ask you to please stop the FUD. What you are doing is not helpful at all for the community at large nor is it informative.

If and when BFL turns out to be a failure / scam like bitcoinasic.net, that is when it would be appropriate to make comments like they are "cowboys" and bash them into non-existence.

Wouldn't it be too late to warn unsuspecting investors of the risks/poor company performance at that point?

If their true intention was to con investors, such warnings would be valid and warranted. However based on the evidence of their past endeavours and in addition to bringing one of CGminer's core developers to actually visit their headquarters in KC; its highly unlikely that they would go through all that effort to con unsuspecting investors.

Pardon? They've been lying about shipping dates for EIGHT MONTHS...how is that not a con? The evidence of their past endeavors indicates that they're dishonest about shipping dates and power consumption specs. Hey at least they're consistently dishonest though right?

While I agree with you about the shipping delays; the delays in themselves don't constitute a scam it mostly show poor project management / lack of experience in the field of making ASIC chips. In addition to showing their inconsistencies with dishonesty in previous shipping date promises and power consumption specs with their FPGA products, they did actually prove that they could build a pretty good FPGA bitcoin mining product with acceptable power specs (although not what they had promised; 4 times the power is bad but 80w v 34w is not a deal breaker for me). Like I said, I'm not 100% for all their actions but it's not like their CEO went on a drunk rampage telling people that the "asians" were going to take over the project. I understand that everyone's view is different but I personally don't believe BFL to be scammers; just kind of inexperienced at the whole ASIC / chip manufacturing gig. I'm very much hoping that they pull through it all (half because i'm slightly invested in the pre-orders)  mostly because it would be good for BTC and this community in general to see another ASIC manufacturer succeed. It would strengthen the base of bitcoin (the miners) and allow for a more stable BTC economy to be flourish (maintain a stable value for once).