Them BFL Cowboys

[creativex]

I don't find their ridiculous excuses for the delays to be at all credible and please don't get me started on comparing Van Riper to Vleisides.

[1714852118]

1714852118

[firefop]

Honestly, I don't know how they're able to not touch a single satoshi of the ASIC pre-order funds, currently operating off the profits of the sales of FPGA products (no longer sold) and VC funding which, BTW, funded the FPGA rigs since none of that pre-order money was also not used during development.

We're talking about massive overhead here, and that's if those in upper management (above Josh) are not taking salary. Speaking of salaries, the best case scenario is that no more than a quarter million dollars has been paid out to the current staff over the past six months, based on prevailing wages and about a dozen personal (no more than 18 employees).

The new warehouse cost is probably their least expense, considering it's a least with a build-to-use clause. Even if the least payment is $3,000/mo (no way it should be more), they could have locked in by paying $36,000 down (year in advance least payments) at the worse case scenario if they couldn't show enough cred to obtain a conventional least. But that's probably not the case, for the Vleisides family has been a fixture around KC for decades.

The above only mentioned to drive the point home that the warehouse cost is one of their least expenses.

That said, unless I figured incorrectly, we're easily at a million dollars that only came from the profit of the FGPA sales and VC funding. Is this possible? Feel free to set me straight on my assessment.

~Bruno K~

Having worked for and managed several small businesses I can tell you that this doesn't seem strange to me at all. This really depends on how deep the pockets of the investors happen to be. How much venture capital was obtained over what period of time.

They're certainly going to generate millions in orders the first year after they ship. I personally am prepared to purchase a quarter million worth of rigs about a week after I see some 'in the wild' numbers on them. There must be others planning to do the same. How quickly I'm going to hand over that money or additional money really depends on real world numbers not projections.

Moving to a new location is an expense - it's dwarfed by the NRE of setting up asic production. In that you're correct. I couldn't comment on FPGA sales numbers... but I'd imagine that most of their operating costs have come from investor money. With the fpga sales money going to pay wages and costs of operating fpga business.

[creativex]

I couldn't comment on FPGA sales numbers... but I'd imagine that most of their operating costs have come from investor money. With the fpga sales money going to pay wages and costs of operating fpga business.

...uhh...they don't have an FPGA business. Nor have they for some time. That was part of the incentive for them to lie about their ASIC timetable, they effectively crippled the FPGA market which they were exiting anyway. Pretty slick.

[Monster Tent]

BFL and BitcoinASIC probably sourced their chips from the same place.

[smoothie]

By BFL's own admission they do not know if the chip design works and if the specified SPEEDS they are selling products at on their website is in fact going to be realistic.

If you haven't tested anything (nor have a working prototype) with ASIC chips, then how would you be able to make estimates on hash power?

Here is my guess, which might not be that off:

A third and likely forth party relayed to BFL that they could get X amount of hashes/sec with said ASIC chips to be developed. Not looking at the possibility that the specified hash targets could be unrealistic for the time frame they thought "Damn we can make a ton of money being the FIRST ASIC distributor/developer/whatever you wanna call it".

If BFL had anything to tout that was real technology they would have already done it and Inaba/Josh would have been slamming everyone on this forum that he was right we are idiots.

Do you have preorders with BFL? My advice would be to cancel them, get your fiat back, buy bitcoins and hold for 6 months.

Much of what you are seeing on their website, ads, CES, etc....is a Dog and Pony show. Typical of people who do not have a 100% working product.

Their intentions may have been right when taking customer money, but because the goal was likely unrealistic to accomplish, the developers/engineers/ASIC team said to BFL whatever they wanted to hear in order to get the funding to do their "development".

I call it delaying and sweet talking. "oh yeah we SHOULD be done by X date...oh well things didnt go as planned wait another Y days/weeks....oh Joe Schmoe didn't get back to me about the Clock Buffers so I couldn't do anything....blah blah blah."

[smoothie]

The ASIC team is a third party we have contracted with to do the design and routing on the chip itself, they are located in California.

I don't have the specifics on the testing procedure, so I can't answer that. They don't need 1000 chips to do the testing, but we can't just send part of a wafer and 1 wafer is around 1000 chips. Testing chips and testing devices are two entirely different things. The testing that's being done on the chips is to make sure the chip design is correct, not whether or not a particular chip works. This round of testing does not care if any individual chip is bad, we just want to know if the new BGA packages has any problems in the design/mask.

Here is Josh's logic fail ^

How can the chips be working if the design isn't correct? oh wait it's a technicality that no one even cares about. If the design or reason for the chips to be designed isnt working how it was intended then it doesn't work.

[smoothie]

False. Application Specific Integrated Circuits have been around since the early 80's.

I won't get into a pissing match about this, however, I was referring to bitcoin mining ASICs.  For the sake of brevity, I made the assumption that anyone reading my post would understand this.

Apparently not.

Wrong again. AVALON has confirmed multiple shipped devices.

Likely more than were confirmed. I wouldn't post if I have a working ASIC from them.

But my point was that your comments are just rubbish based on no research or facts.

[firefop]

The ASIC team is a third party we have contracted with to do the design and routing on the chip itself, they are located in California.

I don't have the specifics on the testing procedure, so I can't answer that. They don't need 1000 chips to do the testing, but we can't just send part of a wafer and 1 wafer is around 1000 chips. Testing chips and testing devices are two entirely different things. The testing that's being done on the chips is to make sure the chip design is correct, not whether or not a particular chip works. This round of testing does not care if any individual chip is bad, we just want to know if the new BGA packages has any problems in the design/mask.

Here is Josh's logic fail ^

How can the chips be working if the design isn't correct? oh wait it's a technicality that no one even cares about. If the design or reason for the chips to be designed isnt working how it was intended then it doesn't work.

It's obvious from the context that he's saying that this test isn't looking for defective chips, but to evaluate to make certain that the design itself works.

I think you need to sharpen your troll-claws smoothie, you're slipping.

[smoothie]

The ASIC team is a third party we have contracted with to do the design and routing on the chip itself, they are located in California.

I don't have the specifics on the testing procedure, so I can't answer that. They don't need 1000 chips to do the testing, but we can't just send part of a wafer and 1 wafer is around 1000 chips. Testing chips and testing devices are two entirely different things. The testing that's being done on the chips is to make sure the chip design is correct, not whether or not a particular chip works. This round of testing does not care if any individual chip is bad, we just want to know if the new BGA packages has any problems in the design/mask.

Here is Josh's logic fail ^

How can the chips be working if the design isn't correct? oh wait it's a technicality that no one even cares about. If the design or reason for the chips to be designed isnt working how it was intended then it doesn't work.

It's obvious from the context that he's saying that this test isn't looking for defective chips, but to evaluate to make certain that the design itself works.

I think you need to sharpen your troll-claws smoothie, you're slipping.

My definition of a working chip = working design.

Sorry but claws still in tact. Come again next time. 

[kaerf]

I think the difference josh is talking about is checking for physical/production flaws vs. design/logic flaws.

[crazyates]

Do you have preorders with BFL? My advice would be to cancel them, get your fiat back, buy bitcoins and hold for 6 months.

How very nice of you to be so concerned with my financial well-being, that you would offer me your unsolicited advice.

Seriously, Fuck off and stop spamming these BFL threads. We get it already. You hate them. Josh said some mean words to you. You want everyone to refund so BFL will fail.

[rocksalt]

Honestly, the naysayers just shut up and go troll somewhere else.. its just like watching kids in a play ground arguing over which footballers wife can beat which other wives in a snooker final in an Olympic swimming pool filled with smarties whilst being on a diet.

Seriously get a frickin grip!

Just cos Avalon have shipped first, doesn't mean they are better, and just cos BFL haven'y shipped yet, doesn't mean its a scam.

If you don't like x then just shut up, if you don't like y, then shut up!
You should only be offering insightful and calm information and dialogue, not slinging crap about like pigs in a mud bath.


You lot are supposed to be professional miners, supposed to know what this fledgling industry is about from the technical to the economic side of things, you all act like kids arguing and counter arguing over something that's just only been born!! Geez... once they are both out and the figures have been tallied and facts counted then you can start comparing, that's the adult thing to do.

I read these forums everyday, and everyday i feel more and more its a struggle to sift the wheat from the chaft.

I'm almost ashamed to say i respect some of your opinions and your technical prowess when you start acting like kids in the play ground.

I have an order with BFL, i don't care it might take a while to get it, i feel its the superior product that fits my needs, but i don't involve myself in the arguments one way or another as im only interested in the development, factual data about the development, and valued opinions from you guys on its eventual direction, which is becoming scarce.

Please for the sake of the community, please stop this needless and self destructive bickering.

[becoin]

This really depends on how deep the pockets of the investors happen to be. How much venture capital was obtained over what period of time.

Their only investors are those that have invested in their promises, aka "pre-orders".

[crazyates]

This really depends on how deep the pockets of the investors happen to be. How much venture capital was obtained over what period of time.

Their only investors are those that have invested in their promises, aka "pre-orders".

That's nothing more than your opinion. Care to prove it?

[becoin]

This really depends on how deep the pockets of the investors happen to be. How much venture capital was obtained over what period of time.

Their only investors are those that have invested in their promises, aka "pre-orders".

That's nothing more than your opinion. Care to prove it?

Not me, they have to prove they have investors!

[Superzero]

Honestly, the naysayers just shut up

Where the hell is the thumbs-up button?

[becoin]

Honestly, the naysayers just shut up

Where the hell is the thumbs-up button?

It's only on BFL's forum. You must be pretty accustomed to it?

[nbtcminer]

Honestly, the naysayers just shut up

Where the hell is the thumbs-up button?

It's only on BFL's forum. You must be pretty accustomed to it?

Aren't you the same guy who had a thread re-named to highlight something you failed to do? Oh yeah this:

Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1468414#msg1468414
*Note: The title was adjusted by a moderator.

[Unacceptable]

Honestly, the naysayers just shut up

Where the hell is the thumbs-up button?

It's only on BFL's forum. You must be pretty accustomed to it?

Aren't you the same guy who had a thread re-named to highlight something you failed to do? Oh yeah this:

Re: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1468414#msg1468414
*Note: The title was adjusted by a moderator.

Yepper,that's him 

[DobZombie]

ZOMG ANOTHER POINTLESS THREAD BY FRIZ23

As far as delivery time for user ASICs go, they're all fucking liars.