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Author Topic: Bitcoin market cap is now almost... [Apollo moon landing project+Ft. Knox !]  (Read 8257 times)
mokahless
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February 28, 2013, 01:48:13 AM
Last edit: December 16, 2017, 01:22:28 AM by mokahless
 #1

The Bitcoin market cap is now 77% of Jay-Z's net worth in Nov. 2011 [source:http://xkcd.com/980/huge]

Discuss.

I'll start.

I've never really put it in perspective but damn. Bitcoin is so small. I mean, the market cap of Bitcoin only became worth more than a single airbus A380 just earlier this month.
Putting this in perspective, along with all the newer businesses and bitpay this year... is the value increasing really a surprise?

So to sum up what this topic discussion is about:
1. What are your thoughts on Bitcoin's current and potential value?
2. Do you think Bitcoin is small?
3. What do we know about the theoretical market capitalization of "corporate/store currencies?" And what are your thoughts on them? For example, Canadian Tire money is practically cash in Canada.
4. Let's let this discussion stray wherever it wants to go. This could be interesting and maybe give some perspective.

The following are Nov. 2011 values.

Reached
Code:
March 6, 2013 --> We have now surpassed not only Jay-z, but also:
-Diddy
-one USD per US resident
March 21, 2013-->Mona Lisa Assessed value ($730,660,000)
-economic savings during hurricane irene
March 27, 2013---->1 billion hit
April 2, 2013-------> $10 for every US household ($1,179,180,000)
April 7, 2013-------> Box office revenue of Star Wars, adjusted for inflation ($1,681,000,000)
April 8, 2013-------> Cost to fund wikipedia at current levels for 100 years ($1,850,000,000)
April 8, 2013-------> Total annual tax breaks to the 5 largest oil companies ($2,100,000,000)
April 10, 2013------>B-2 Bomber ($2,500,000,000)
                            Donald Trump 2011 ($2,700,000,000)
November 6, 2013-->George Lucas 2011 ($3,200,000,000)
November 17, 2013->Bruce Wayne's fortune ($6,500,000,000)
November 17, 2013->Steve Jobs 2011 ($8,300,000,000)
August 6, 2017->Bill Gates 2011 ($56,000,000,000)
December 3, 2017->Apollo moon landing project ($192,000,000,000)
December 6, 2017->Ft. Knox "Gold" Reserves ($245,900,000,000)

Next stops:
Code:
Apple Corporation 2011 ($358,310,000,000)
Combined 1yr profit of fortune 500 ($708,600,000,000)
Total outstanding student loans, 2011 ($955,800,000,000)

I'll be looking for interesting stops and updating. I will also come back when these goals are reached. If you get excited and I haven't updated it yet, feel free to give me a pm.

Also, I will only be altering this thread when price goes up, not down. So whatever you see here is the top of the market at some point. I am also going strictly by whatever the largest USD exchange is at the time.

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BitcoinAshley
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February 28, 2013, 03:45:54 AM
 #2

It's small, and that means we're in for a wild ride. Right now it might be "too small" for the big players to really take notice, but it might be worth it for them to take action when they notice adoption increasing.

But we don't even know what the "big players" will do.
Some of them will simply invest and try to get rich. I.E. just classic bulls trying to jump on the train.
Some of them (i.e. governments, multinationals, etc) would have more of an interest in actually sabotaging Bitcoin, i.e. pumping and dumping, etc.
Then of course there are regulations but BTC is like torrent in that there's really nothing they can do except regulate business and pass laws restricting individual use of BTC, in which case people would still use BTC to store value and sell for fiat for purchases in the same way people still use bittorrent to download movies all the time with a 0.000000001% chance of actually getting caught.
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March 01, 2013, 01:15:00 AM
 #3

Also, it's a misnomer that there is a single set of "big players." Wealth is a continuum. At every new level of "market cap" bitcoin reaches, there is a new set of "big players" it becomes interesting to.

Bitcoin is now at the level where it becomes an interesting investment for someone who wants to put a million dollars into it. It is still probably not at the level where players who need to invest $10M or more (medium-sized hedge funds), are really interested. But with another doubling or two, it will become accessible to them.

The biggest players, aside from central banks, are pension funds, who manage tens or hundreds of billions. We will not be seeing them for a long long time. They move as a herd, and they haven't even really begun to move into gold in any significant way (my guess is under 2% of pension assets are in gold), much less the teeny tiny asset that is bitcoin.

But I think it's counterproductive to focus too much on big players. It's all about the grass roots word of mouth, spreading the word as broadly as possible. Because of the network effects of bitcoin, it is much more valuable to have 100 people who want to buy $10k worth than to have 1 person who wants to buy $1M worth. Metcalfe's law says the value of a network is proportional to the square of the number of connected nodes. That means that every new person that becomes a holder/user of bitcoin is more valuable to the ecosystem than the previous user. Not only that, a broader base of owners is much more stable. The person with a single large holding might suddenly decide to sell it all. All 100 smaller holders are very statistically unlikely to do so.
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March 01, 2013, 04:49:55 AM
 #4

This would suggest the big players are coming

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=147336.0

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March 01, 2013, 07:47:01 PM
 #5

So to sum up what this topic discussion is about:
1. What are your thoughts on Bitcoin's current and potential value?
2. Do you think Bitcoin is small?
3. What do we know about the theoretical market capitalization of "corporate/store currencies?" And what are your thoughts on them? For example, Canadian Tire money is practically cash in Canada.
4. Let's let this discussion stray wherever it wants to go. This could be interesting and maybe give some perspective.

1. Potential value is huge, current value is great for investing.
2. Yes, BTC is tiny. It's nothing. Just like you said, it's worth less than Jay-Z's net worth an a little bit more than a Jumbo Jet. For a currency, that's absolutely nothing and makes it impossible for any big establishments to consider adopting BTC.
3. Not interested, a different animal altogether.
4. Just want to point out that outside this little bubble of Bitcointalk.org, BTC is still completely unknown to almost everyone. That's why it's still a huge opportunity, even if we crossed the previous all time high this week. Your observations are good examples of how to get a perspective of what Bitcoin is right now.
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March 01, 2013, 08:23:07 PM
 #6

It'll be fun when we can officially say that BTC = 1 Jay-Z

And thus, the Jay-Z index was born.

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March 01, 2013, 11:27:20 PM
 #7

It'll be fun when we can officially say that BTC = 1 Jay-Z

And thus, the Jay-Z index was born.
lol! +1

- aka The "DigiMan"
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March 02, 2013, 02:08:09 AM
 #8

The biggest players, aside from central banks, are pension funds, who manage tens or hundreds of billions. We will not be seeing them for a long long time. They move as a herd, and they haven't even really begun to move into gold in any significant way (my guess is under 2% of pension assets are in gold), much less the teeny tiny asset that is bitcoin.

They also tend to have very strict rules about diversification, and allowed % in certain types of funds.  For example, a given pension isn't going to be able to invest in anything that isn't AAA rated by Moody's or S&P, that means no chance of investing in bitcoins.

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March 02, 2013, 06:14:47 AM
 #9

a given pension isn't going to be able to invest in anything that isn't AAA rated by Moody's or S&P, that means no chance of investing in bitcoins.
as we all know this is a true shame - and also what caused the recent recession.
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March 02, 2013, 11:46:27 AM
 #10

He got 99 problems but a Bitcoin ain't one.
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March 02, 2013, 02:26:20 PM
 #11

What if he buys all the bitcoins and send them big amounts to his fans??

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March 02, 2013, 09:49:49 PM
 #12

How about this for some perspective. The current bitcoin economy is somewhere between Micronesia's and Tonga's total GDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)). We're not even talking about a tiny part of the global economy, we're talking about a tiny part of a tiny country's economy.

I'm gonna rant a little, kind of share what my imagination has been conjuring lately...

I tend to believe that the network effect of bitcoin is it's strongest and most vulnerable point. The more people use it, the more people use it - and the less people use it, the less people use it. On the one hand, if it doesn't stick well with people, it will have a very very hard time gaining traction. On the other hand, if it does start catching on significantly, it won't stop. That's why I think it will follow a classical exponential adoption rate.

I'm not going to say that I expect bitcoin to take over the world economy, but since there is a [variable] hard limit to the size of the bitcoin economy at full saturation (theoretically the global economy), we will see a very clear "log phase" in a market cap graph as seen with, e.g. bacterial growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_growth). When the bitcoin economy reaches full saturation, everything from 2009 until today will look like a straight line, because the market cap will be many, many orders of magnitude larger than today.

Edit: I will add that having more than one medium of trade is not fun. If everyone is buying and selling in bitcoin, you are more likely to sell and buy in bitcoin respectively.

I believe bitcoin's most interesting phase is most definitely not this one. I believe bitcoin will catch on in exponential fashion. That is to say, the jump from the Marshal Islands to Micronesia (roughly four weeks) will take around the same time as the jump from the UK to China. I kind of imagine adoption rate to be somewhat similar to Facebook's, except bitcoin might have a sharper exponential rate.
http://bylimedesign.com/facebook_histodical_users.png

The downside is that the transition will be harsh. And I mean dire. Governments will not take this lightly. Taxation is a bitch with bitcoin. Central banks won't either. Bitcoin is not fiat. And since both are tied to each other for survival the way things are currently run around the world, and considering both will probably use whatever means necessary to avoid competing with bitcoin directly, I believe violent means will not be passed over... Bitcoin will be fought in similar tactics as p2p file sharing was/is fought by the record label industry. Idiotically. However, as dinosaur as fiat may be in the face of bitcoin, this war will be orders of magnitude larger than that of the record label industry. And the means will be orders of magnitude more fierce.

That "log phase" will be the defining moment. That's when the public will decide if bitcoin is here to stay. If you think today the bitcoin is volatile, imagine the events that will influence bitcoin when Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq-scale war will be waged to keep business as usual in western civilization? On the other hand, how do you take down a Facebook with out any central servers or operators?
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March 02, 2013, 10:05:43 PM
 #13

The war will be futile and in the end dinosaurs will die.

I am curious though. What exact means do you think governments will adopt? Do you truly believe the mere possession of Bitcoin will be a criminal offense in western (North America + Europe) countries? If so, a lot of people will be in jeopardy since proving that someone at some point owned Bitcoins is quite easy if any bank has ever been involved in the acquiring process.
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March 05, 2013, 01:31:12 PM
 #14

The war will be futile and in the end dinosaurs will die.

I am curious though. What exact means do you think governments will adopt? Do you truly believe the mere possession of Bitcoin will be a criminal offense in western (North America + Europe) countries? If so, a lot of people will be in jeopardy since proving that someone at some point owned Bitcoins is quite easy if any bank has ever been involved in the acquiring process.

They did it with drugs....mere possession....that sorta worked...not, but drugs are much harder to send around

the problem with BTC is how do you exchange large wads of cash or into bank accounts if it is illegal.....you  may have to set up some sort of offshore/swiss operation?Huh


also how would the prove say you had BTC if you buy anon....this is what I dont like about GOX

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March 06, 2013, 09:45:58 AM
 #15

What exact means do you think governments will adopt? Do you truly believe the mere possession of Bitcoin will be a criminal offense in western (North America + Europe) countries?

That's a hard question. That's like guessing what the current exchange rate will be in five years. It really depends on how it unfolds, how people use it, etc. One thing I can be quite sure is that there won't be a point when the rich will just go "oh fuck it, let them have their way". They will take every last measure before giving up the old way which got them their wealth.

the problem with BTC is how do you exchange large wads of cash or into bank accounts if it is illegal.....you  may have to set up some sort of offshore/swiss operation?Huh

Easy. You don't have to transfer your current wealth stored in fiat in order to get bitcoin. Simply start working for BTC. The same way you got your fiat. When government makes it illegal to trade fiat for BTC, that's when either fiat or BTC start losing their worth (my guess is that by the time the governments realize this, fiat will already be on a steep downward slope).
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March 21, 2013, 10:43:11 PM
 #16

Assessed value of the Mona Lisa reached.

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March 22, 2013, 12:31:20 AM
 #17


So to sum up what this topic discussion is about:
1. What are your thoughts on Bitcoin's current and potential value?
2. Do you think Bitcoin is small?
3. What do we know about the theoretical market capitalization of "corporate/store currencies?" And what are your thoughts on them? For example, Canadian Tire money is practically cash in Canada.
4. Let's let this discussion stray wherever it wants to go. This could be interesting and maybe give some perspective.



1. There are 81,000 people in the world with over $50M in assets: http://www.economist.com/node/17929057 . You can do a bunch of estimates from there.

2. Yes.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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March 22, 2013, 12:37:41 AM
 #18

It's a race with the FED. And BTC is losing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#Achilles_and_the_tortoise

3600 BTC printed daily? need to have a $500,000 per BTC to reach the printing frenzy of the FED.

But by the time we have $500,000 per BTC. The FED will have accelerated to ten-fold.

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March 22, 2013, 12:39:42 AM
 #19

Assessed value of the Mona Lisa reached.

The potential future of money is worth 1 small canvas with paint on it?  Dear god, give this thing some traction please  Cheesy .
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March 22, 2013, 12:43:25 AM
 #20

Ben currently prints $118,000,000/hr. So that's, what, all of bitcoin every 6.5 hours?


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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