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Author Topic: Fact: Taxation is violent.  (Read 3778 times)
Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 01:04:27 AM
 #1

People work or provide some form of value to society. Their value is returned in money. For all intents and purposes, this value is labor and the labor eventually becomes equivalent to money. Most states collect a portion of this money (called taxation) which is essentially enslaving a part of a person's labor.  Slavery can only be continued by force and ultimately death of the individual if he does not comply.

In conclusion, taxation is violent.
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June 11, 2011, 01:07:30 AM
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I don't support violence.
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June 11, 2011, 01:14:14 AM
 #3

Sure is, and I can't wait until all of the selfish libertarian idiots like you are taken off to Gitmo and tortured to death for your thought crimes and tax evasion.  Grin
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June 11, 2011, 01:20:47 AM
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I dont you mean it CAN be violent?

If you always think in categories you will miss the bigger picture.
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Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 01:25:34 AM
 #5

I dont you mean it CAN be violent?
If it's not violent, it's not taxation.

...and being apathetic to your slavery does not make it any less violent.
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June 11, 2011, 01:28:27 AM
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June 11, 2011, 01:47:40 AM
 #7

Who or what decides what value is?  How is that value measured?  Can perception of value be universally objective?  What value can the comatose, those with sever persistent asthma, or severely disabled add to the economy?  What of Immanuel Kant?
Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 01:55:06 AM
 #8

Who or what decides what value is?
The individuals that produce it and the ones who choose to trade for it.

How is that value measured?
By the individual producing it and the ones who desire it.

Can perception of value be universally objective?
Never.

What value can the comatose, those with sever persistent asthma, or severely disabled add to the economy?
Whatever they can produce. I am sure human empathy will be enough to serve this minority.

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June 11, 2011, 02:00:54 AM
 #9

Whatever they can produce. I am sure human empathy will be enough to serve this minority.
And that's where you're wrong! If you'd ever been a real problem situation, if you hadn't been born with wealth and large social support network, you'd realize that this is not the case. If it were, why are children from impoverished, abusive homes living on the street? What did they ever do to deserve less opportunity than you? If society is so generous, why are they still on the street?!?!
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June 11, 2011, 02:01:03 AM
 #10

If you have sex with 1,001 people and 1,000 consent but 1 does not, you're a rapist.

If you take money from 1,001 people and 1,000 consent but 1 does not, you're a thief.

Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 02:03:14 AM
 #11

Whatever they can produce. I am sure human empathy will be enough to serve this minority.
And that's where you're wrong! If you'd ever been a real problem situation, if you hadn't been born with wealth and large social support network, you'd realize that this is not the case. If it were, why are children from impoverished, abusive homes living on the street? What did they ever do to deserve less opportunity than you? If society is so generous, why are they still on the street?!?!
Because it appears governments have made a near monopoly out of charity as well. Monopolies don't tend to produce the best industries especially with the weakened poor excuses of private charities we have today.

Anyways, if society is so uncaring, where are these benevolent overlords coming from?
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June 11, 2011, 02:27:12 AM
 #12

People work or provide some form of value to society. Their value is returned in money. For all intents and purposes, this value is labor and the labor eventually becomes equivalent to money. Most states collect a portion of this money (called taxation) which is essentially enslaving a part of a person's labor.  Slavery can only be continued by force and ultimately death of the individual if he does not comply.

In conclusion, taxation is violent.

Nice use of inductive reasoning...... And I think the word your looking for is coercive not violent Smiley.  And therby taxation is a coersive payment extracted from the individual for there goods and production, OK?

So lets examine your statement:

Quote from: Atlas
People work or provide some form of value to society.


And using inductive reasoning: The individual works creating an object and this object has some value to the individual. Also given there is an external world to this individual named Society, then the collective intelligence of society determines that there is some other value upon this object. Now what is fair value? Well fair value would be somewhere in between, determined by the circumstances of both the individual and society. Now WTF is stopping a coercive payment being extracted from the individual through a distortion of fair-value(aka Taxation, or Whatever term you want to use)?

So when you say OMG taxation is bad we should remove it, its so so so bad, cry cry cry, how do you suggest that create the institutions that stop coercive payments once taxation is removed? You think people are really nice and will somehow behave according to the ideal market?Huh

I need a job!!!!

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Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 02:32:30 AM
 #13

Nice use of inductive reasoning...... And I think the word your looking for is coercive not violent Smiley.  And therby taxation is a coersive payment extracted from the individual for there goods and production, OK?
Coercion, violence... it's all the same. You are still using the threat of injury and eventually death.

And using inductive reasoning: The individual works creating an object and this object has some value to the individual. Also given there is an external world to this individual named Society, then the collective intelligence of society determines that there is some other value upon this object.
There is no collective intelligence. Choice is always made on an individual level.

Now what is fair value? Well fair value would be somewhere in between, determined by the circumstances of both the individual and society.
Define society. Is it some new type of sentient being? Does it really have its own consistent will?



Now WTF is stopping a coercive payment being extracted from the individual through a distortion of fair-value(aka Taxation, or Whatever term you want to use)?

So when you say OMG taxation is bad we should remove it, its so so so bad, cry cry cry, how do you suggest that create the institutions that stop coercive payments once taxation is removed? You think people are really nice and will somehow behave according to the ideal market?Huh

People can pay for protection on an individual level. It's called a personal firearm -- and when neccessary -- a private security force.
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June 11, 2011, 02:45:55 AM
 #14

And using inductive reasoning: The individual works creating an object and this object has some value to the individual. Also given there is an external world to this individual named Society, then the collective intelligence of society determines that there is some other value upon this object.
There is no collective intelligence. Choice is always made on an individual leavel.

Now what is fair value? Well fair value would be somewhere in between, determined by the circumstances of both the individual and society.
Define society. Is it some new type of sentient being? Does it really have its own consistent will?

Ok, say once all the police are gone and someone is holding a gun to your head for an object you have created (This agent is external, apart of society), will that still be classified as a choice??

Thats not an individual choice... That is a coercive decision.
Quote from: Atlas

Now WTF is stopping a coercive payment being extracted from the individual through a distortion of fair-value(aka Taxation, or Whatever term you want to use)?

So when you say OMG taxation is bad we should remove it, its so so so bad, cry cry cry, how do you suggest that create the institutions that stop coercive payments once taxation is removed? You think people are really nice and will somehow behave according to the ideal market?Huh

People can pay for protection on an individual level. It's called a personal firearm -- and when neccessary -- a private security force.


Sure now that there is no police, lets all have private armies. Hey you know what, instead of producing anything useful for society lets just have an army and go and take stuff from other people. Lets all have private armies, and we can have little wars against each other........ We can create dictatorships, monarchies, colonies, ............

But choice at an individual level still exists right???

I need a job!!!!

Justice Dragons: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16351.msg267881#msg267881

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Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 02:51:00 AM
 #15


Ok, say once all the police are gone and someone is holding a gun to your head for an object you have created (This agent is external, apart of society), will that still be classified as a choice??

Thats not an individual choice... That is a coercive decision.
Oh, if somebody decides make such a bold move, I will have a firearm on my side and so will my fellow man. It will most likely not be a successful endeavor on their part. The monopoly on force is gone. Everybody can have a gun and they shall.


Sure now that there is no police, lets all have private armies. Hey you know what, instead of producing anything useful for society lets just have an army and go and take stuff from other people. Lets all have private armies, and we can have little wars against each other........ We can create dictatorships, monarchies, colonies, ............

But choice is still at an individual level still exists right???
Heh, you see it wouldn't work that way. The individual's desires would win. The monopoly on banking and weapons would be gone. All private armies will have no choice but to settle on the individual's best interest and the right to life. It would not be profitable to try to conquer it all. It would be best to play nicely.
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June 11, 2011, 03:06:32 AM
 #16


Oh, if somebody decides make such a bold move, I will have a firearm on my side and so will my fellow man. It will most likely not be a successful endeavor on their part. The monopoly on force is gone. Everybody can have a gun and they shall.

The just shifts the monopoly into the technological realm......... Who has the better gun, access to coercive force will still be restricted in someway, thereby removing this notion of "individual choice", this is proven by human history. The whole notion that the monopoly on coercive force would somehow just vanish is absurd.

Quote from: Atlas

Heh, you see it wouldn't work that way. The individual's desires would win. The monopoly on banking and weapons would be gone. All private armies will have no choice but to settle on the individual's best interest and the right to life. It would not be profitable to try to conquer it all. It would be best to play nicely.

Sure if you can build an ideal world where access to capital and weapons was unrestricted, sounds like the utopian world I have wet dreams over.

I need a job!!!!

Justice Dragons: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16351.msg267881#msg267881

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Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 03:09:43 AM
 #17


Oh, if somebody decides make such a bold move, I will have a firearm on my side and so will my fellow man. It will most likely not be a successful endeavor on their part. The monopoly on force is gone. Everybody can have a gun and they shall.

The just shifts the monopoly into the technological realm......... Who has the better gun, access to coercive force will still be restricted in someway, thereby removing this notion of "individual choice", this is proven by human history. The whole notion that the monopoly on coercive force would somehow just vanish is absurd.

Quote from: Atlas

Heh, you see it wouldn't work that way. The individual's desires would win. The monopoly on banking and weapons would be gone. All private armies will have no choice but to settle on the individual's best interest and the right to life. It would not be profitable to try to conquer it all. It would be best to play nicely.

Sure if you can build an ideal world where access to capital and weapons was unrestricted, sounds like the utopian world I have wet dreams over.
The answer for this type of world is right in front of us. It's called Bitcoin.
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June 11, 2011, 03:20:52 AM
 #18

Your using a technology that is worth approx 144 Million as a premise of your argument..... Okay

I need a job!!!!

Justice Dragons: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16351.msg267881#msg267881

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Anonymous
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June 11, 2011, 03:22:23 AM
 #19

Your using a technology that is worth approx 144 Million as a premise of your argument..... Okay
Give it time.
smellyBobby
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June 11, 2011, 03:24:50 AM
 #20

I will also pray to the bitcoin gods to prove my beliefs true.

I need a job!!!!

Justice Dragons: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16351.msg267881#msg267881

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