Is bitcoin closest to libertarianism? and if it succeeds would it be proof of

[notig]

libertarian ideas of free market and such?

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[nwbitcoin]

Its can't prove anything because bitcoin is a currency, not an ideology!

The problem for libertarianism as a way to run a country is that is removes the reason the vast amount of people have a job.

In a simple world of libertarian ideals, A sells to B. end of story.

In our realist world, with thousands of rules and regulation, A has to comply to rules set and enforced by C through L before he is allowed to sell to B who uses the services of M through to X to ensure that he is getting what he wanted. And we call this a free market!

So, in a true libertarian world, C through to X would have to sell their services to A and B. They would have to convince them both, without using the threat of a big fine or the loss of their liberty, that raising their prices to cover the cost of employing C to X was a price worth paying!

And that is my take on real life libertarianism in 3 sentences!

I can't see how the success of Bitcoin can prove anything other than libertarianism is often confused with Corporatism!

[BitcoinAshley]

I would say absolutely not, because Libertarianism applied to the state spectrum is "minarchy" i.e. small state, not big state or no state. Bitcoin has virtually no state oversight. It is a purely free market microcosm (that exists alongside the socialist markets of the world). Libertarianism is basically "I don't like the size of the state now, it has too much power and is doing too many bad things. We need to reduce its size." But you can keep reducing it and the inherent violence of the state means there will always be Libertarians who say "We need to make the state smaller." On the other hand we will always have socialists who say "We need to make the state bigger." 

If anything it adheres to principles of voluntarism. It is completely decentralized with no oversight (unless you consider the foundation's control over the main client a form of state oversight, but that could be argued forever.) This allows for voluntary association and no inherent use of violence in principle.

Relevant: http://www.freedomainradio.com/FreeBooks.aspx
Did we mention that Stefan accepts bitcoins? He knows what's up.
 
Now, all that being said, the concept of bitcoin is far more compatible with libertarianism than it is with ideologies that call for larger governments. And I believe that Libertarians generally call for no government oversight over the money supply, so I suppose in that respect it is compatible.

[Lethn]

I'd say BitcoinAshley is pretty much right, Bitcoin also appeals to Anarchism as well in a way I think but the thing about Bitcoin that doesn't make it Anarchist as it's still governed by Math as opposed to politicians which to me makes far more sense for something that is based on numbers to begin with.

[MonadTran]

Bitcoin is a tool. Libertarianism is a general idea that more freedom would be better. Voluntaryism is the idea that violence is unacceptable, and all interactions should be voluntary. Anarchism is the idea that no person has the right to rule other people.

Can you have violence, rulers, stupid laws and Bitcoin, all at the same time? I would say, yes, absolutely. Bitcoin is an important step in reducing the power of the rulers, but it is not the final step.

[Bit_Happy]

Who is your mentor?
What books taught you about the "free market"?

...
So, in a true libertarian world, C through to X would have to sell their services to A and B. They would have to convince them both, without using the threat of a big fine or the loss of their liberty, that raising their prices to cover the cost of employing C to X was a price worth paying!
...

[nwbitcoin]

Who is your mentor?
What books taught you about the "free market"?

...
So, in a true libertarian world, C through to X would have to sell their services to A and B. They would have to convince them both, without using the threat of a big fine or the loss of their liberty, that raising their prices to cover the cost of employing C to X was a price worth paying!
...

Having spent a few years reading different interpretations of free market and trading, (from Adam Smith through to Milton Friedman and the Austrian Types) the above is how I would see that world we have today would have to work, if we didn't have the regulatory system in place that corporatism has given us.

Do you have any objections to it?  Please Share!

[akspecs]

I think BTC will resemble whatever the individual wants it to resemble.

An anarchist will claim that it is perfect anarchy because of it's decentralized existence.

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

(after all, look no further than the world of torrents to see what perfect socialism looks like)

Ben Bernanke will claim that it is the pinnacle of absurd because of it's monetarist qualities, along with lack of central authority.

Bitcoin is what you want it to be.  It's what you make of it.  And nothing more.

[Dabs]

Bitcoin is a way to transfer ownership or control of stores of value, quickly, and in such a way that it has as it's properties: basically you can't double spend coins, you can't reverse transactions... It's money that is almost like cash. I think of it as a check that clears in 10 minutes. If the transaction doesn't get confirmed soon, it will be by tomorrow, so it's not something I worry much about for what I use it for.

I regularly tell people to wait a day for stuff.

[Snipes777]

90% of arguments can be decided by defining the terms. There is a difference between political libertarianism (constitutionalism, minarchy) and philosophical libertarianism (voluntaryism, anarchy).

This is some of the difference. Of course, it is the goal of most bitcoin people that bitcoin- with no state oversight- will be better and out-compete government currencies. This is much more indicative that people use what they prefer and what is easier, better, and cheaper for the ends they want. If this is what you define as libertarianism, and bitcoin succeeds then it would be verification.

[Bit_Happy]

...if we didn't have the regulatory system in place that corporatism has given us.

Do you have any objections to it?  Please Share!

Enron
Bernie Madoff
Real estate mortgage meltdown

Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

[nwbitcoin]

...if we didn't have the regulatory system in place that corporatism has given us.

Do you have any objections to it?  Please Share!

Enron
Bernie Madoff
Real estate mortgage meltdown

Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

Obviously, I have written a post that was designed for someone with the ability to read, and understand abstract ideas, and that is my fault.

I won't do it again!

[Bit_Happy]

Obviously, I have written a post that was designed...

Please, have the integrity to answer the main point, or admit you are unable for some reason.

FYI:
Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

[nwbitcoin]

Obviously, I have written a post that was designed...

Please, have the integrity to answer the main point, or admit you are unable for some reason.

FYI:
Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

I haven't got the time to teach you how to read a thread in sequence so let me just say that I agree with you that corporatism stinks.

However, unlike Libertarianism, corporatism exists in the real world and is the only way to grow a business to a national and international level.

My original point was that if you wanted to see libertarianism in the real world, you would need to find employment for all the people that the current corporatist system employs.  Without that happening, you are destined to create a third world country very quickly.

Now will you retract your suggestion that I support the actions of companies like the ones you named?

[Bit_Happy]

I read in sequence, thank you for trying to answer.

...
I haven't got the time to teach you how to read a thread in sequence...

I have time to teach you to not unjustly paint Libertarianism in a bad light.
You want "sequence", OK let's start at the top:

...
In a simple world of libertarian ideals...

That is already a load of BS. (i.e A typical mindless smear against free markets)
A world of libertarian ideals does not need to be simple. Do you agree?

[Lethn]

However, unlike Libertarianism, corporatism exists in the real world and is the only way to grow a business to a national and international level.

..... You are aware we're on a Bitcoin forum right? That may have been true a few years ago but it isn't now LOL

[nwbitcoin]

However, unlike Libertarianism, corporatism exists in the real world and is the only way to grow a business to a national and international level.

..... You are aware we're on a Bitcoin forum right? That may have been true a few years ago but it isn't now LOL

Really? 

One of the reasons that bitcoin is taking off is because some people in Wall St like the idea. 

Wall St is the home of Corporatism with its closed shop mentality, thousands of pages of regulations and political lobbyists.

As things are at the moment, bitcoin needs to wind in its free market spirit if it wants to grow.  If it wants to be recognized as a currency, it needs to start jumping through some corporatist hoops.  If it does take off, one of the first things that will happen is that you will need to be a financially qualified to do more than save and spend it.

Welcome to the regulated market - it certainly isn't libertarian!

[Lethn]

Look at Bittorrent as an example of something working without corporatism that system has had nothing but hate from corporations and yet it's thriving and is more popular than ever, these kind of decentralised technologies are designed to work without any sort of regulative body or corporation behind it, sure corporate backing can do things, but it isn't as necessary as you seem to think.

[nwbitcoin]

Look at Bittorrent as an example of something working without corporatism that system has had nothing but hate from corporations and yet it's thriving and is more popular than ever, these kind of decentralised technologies are designed to work without any sort of regulative body or corporation behind it, sure corporate backing can do things, but it isn't as necessary as you seem to think.

There are two different issues here.  There is the technical one which needs some support to grow, but not much.  On the other hand bitcoin needs legal support due to what it is, a new form of currency.  That doesn't get into the party without someone noticing its not wearing a tie!

[Lethn]

What people don't realise is that you can always just walk out of the whole system and ignore it.

[nwbitcoin]

What people don't realise is that you can always just walk out of the whole system and ignore it.

Going off the grid is a nice idea, but it doesn't really work if you also want to live in a civil society.

The local police only keep the criminals off your back if you keep paying them the local taxes. 

[nwbitcoin]

I read in sequence, thank you for trying to answer.

...
I haven't got the time to teach you how to read a thread in sequence...

I have time to teach you to not unjustly paint Libertarianism in a bad light.
You want "sequence", OK let's start at the top:

...
In a simple world of libertarian ideals...

That is already a load of BS. (i.e A typical mindless smear against free markets)
A world of libertarian ideals does not need to be simple. Do you agree?

All the best ideas are simple, just not too simple!

[Richy_T]

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

Socialism is not a voluntary system just because it contains some of the same letters in the same order as "society". It requires state force to operate.

[akspecs]

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

Socialism is not a voluntary system just because it contains some of the same letters in the same order as "society". It requires state force to operate.

This is a common misconception.  Not to get into some big argument or anything like that but Marx wrote about the "withering away of the state".  I'm no socialist, but I'm just trying to be fair and claim that anyone of any political ideology can justify their use for bitcoin.

Another thing you would read from Marx is the big time "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" quote.  The bitcoin p2p network is exactly this, as are torrents.  Each downloads and transacts as they please, and offer whatever bandwidth they can to help others transact.

Simply claiming that this is an invention for libertarians is a road to nowhere, seeing that not everyone is a libertarian.

[myrkul]

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

Socialism is not a voluntary system just because it contains some of the same letters in the same order as "society". It requires state force to operate.

This is a common misconception.  Not to get into some big argument or anything like that but Marx wrote about the "withering away of the state".  I'm no socialist, but I'm just trying to be fair and claim that anyone of any political ideology can justify their use for bitcoin.

Another thing you would read from Marx is the big time "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" quote.  The bitcoin p2p network is exactly this, as are torrents.  Each downloads and transacts as they please, and offer whatever bandwidth they can to help others transact.

Simply claiming that this is an invention for libertarians is a road to nowhere, seeing that not everyone is a libertarian.

Well, that's certainly an interesting interpretation of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need." It makes sense, but I doubt that's how Marx originally intended it. I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again later: Socialism works fine, among friends and family. In larger groups, where most of them are strangers, it either ceases being socialism, or it ceases being voluntary.