Is this electrician Bonkers? Input Needed

[Marvell1]

So last year I upgraded from 125 amp service to 200 I had 5 30amp 240 v circuits added to the basement so I could expand my farm.  Current power use is around 16000 to 18000 watts a month far below the 36000 watts possible on a 200amp single pole line.

So now I'm getting a bathroom upgraded to a 4k watt steam room and
This guy is telling me I'm at the limit of my service wtf I said yeah I'm pulling Lots of juice and the 5 30amp circuits are all warm to the touch so I said ok add a sub panel say 60 watts and we can add an additional 30 amp for the heater and a new 30amp to spread some of my current mining load right?

This guy goes outside and says man your main conduit is warm to the touch too bro we neen to get some of your hardware out of here you're pulling too much juice 200 amps is actual only supposed to be 60% continuous load hmm
It thought it was 80 % but ok I'm no where even near 60% which would be like what 32000 watts at 240

Then he goes on about how all this electrical equipment is messing up my sign wave wtf?!

Long story short he wants me to either shut down half my hardware or get a separate 200 amps to the garage and move some of my racks before he will do anything to add the load I need for the steam room what is this guy on

Or am I totally off base here?

[philipma1957]

So last year I upgraded from 125 amp service to 200 I had 5 30amp 240 v circuits added to the basement so I could expand my farm.  Current power use is around 16000 to 18000 watts a month far below the 36000 watts possible on a 200amp single pole line.

So now I'm getting a bathroom upgraded to a 4k watt steam room and
This guy is telling me I'm at the limit of my service wtf I said yeah I'm pulling Lots of juice and the 5 30amp circuits are all warm to the touch so I said ok add a sub panel say 60 watts and we can add an additional 30 amp for the heater and a new 30amp to spread some of my current mining load right?

This guy goes outside and says man your main conduit is warm to the touch too bro we neen to get some of your hardware out of here you're pulling too much juice 200 amps is actual only supposed to be 60% continuous load hmm
It thought it was 80 % but ok I'm no where even near 60% which would be like what 32000 watts at 240

Then he goes on about how all this electrical equipment is messing up my sign wave wtf?!

Long story short he wants me to either shut down half my hardware or get a separate 200 amps to the garage and move some of my racks before he will do anything to add the load I need for the steam room what is this guy on

Or am I totally off base here?

your feeder cable is too small.

the guy that put in the 200 amp service most likely did not change out the feeder cable from the outdoor transformer to the 200 amp box.

my guess is this is the same electrician  and he now realizes he is about to be caught that he did not install a bigger feeder cable from the power company trans former to the 200 amp box.

[sidehack]

Well, first you need to make sure you're using the correct units for everything. When you say "16000 to 18000 watts a month" do you mean 18000 watts of continuous draw for one month, or do you mean 18000 kilowatt-hours in a month's time? Kilowatt-hours is what your meter reflects and what you are billed on. Watts is power, which means instantaneous draw of volts and amps. Watt-hours are energy, which is the integrated total power during a length of time. 18000KWh in a 30-day month (720 hours) corresponds to a 25000W continuous draw, which would be 104A at 240V, or about 65% of your rated draw assuming an 80% safety margin on 200A.

Adding 4KW to that would take you to about 76%.

When you upgraded to 200A service, did you get the wire from the transformer to your breaker panel replaced with something beefier and rated for 200A continuous draw? That could be part of the limitation. (which is what phil just mentioned while I was typing this up)

Messing up the sine wave is probably referring to power factor, which is a more complex topic where non-resistive loads and nonlinear loads cause the current and voltage waveforms to be out of sync, which causes extra transmission losses and noise the power company has to deal with. If you're using fairly cheap power supplies without good power factor correction (PFC) you're probably putting a lot of noise on the line.

I would say, based on your initial post, that it's probably best to take the electrician's advice until you learn a bit more about how power transmission and measurement works. There's a lot of things you said that don't quite make sense, which points to a lack of understanding.

[Marvell1]

So last year I upgraded from 125 amp service to 200 I had 5 30amp 240 v circuits added to the basement so I could expand my farm.  Current power use is around 16000 to 18000 watts a month far below the 36000 watts possible on a 200amp single pole line.

So now I'm getting a bathroom upgraded to a 4k watt steam room and
This guy is telling me I'm at the limit of my service wtf I said yeah I'm pulling Lots of juice and the 5 30amp circuits are all warm to the touch so I said ok add a sub panel say 60 watts and we can add an additional 30 amp for the heater and a new 30amp to spread some of my current mining load right?

This guy goes outside and says man your main conduit is warm to the touch too bro we neen to get some of your hardware out of here you're pulling too much juice 200 amps is actual only supposed to be 60% continuous load hmm
It thought it was 80 % but ok I'm no where even near 60% which would be like what 32000 watts at 240

Then he goes on about how all this electrical equipment is messing up my sign wave wtf?!

Long story short he wants me to either shut down half my hardware or get a separate 200 amps to the garage and move some of my racks before he will do anything to add the load I need for the steam room what is this guy on

Or am I totally off base here?

your feeder cable is too small.

the guy that put in the 200 amp service most likely did not change out the feeder cable from the outdoor transformer to the 200 amp box.

my guess is this is the same electrician  and he now realizes he is about to be caught that he did not install a bigger feeder cable from the power company trans former to the 200 amp box.

No we did change out the feeder cable to one rated for 200 amps the electrician that put it in was my cousin he knows what he's doing I'll post some pics later.

Regarding power use you're right its 18000 kWh i assumed 5x30 amp circuits max out at 28000 watts safe load witch is right were I'm at.  He did say I was pulling around 140 amps continuous from the meter

[philipma1957]

Well, first you need to make sure you're using the correct units for everything. When you say "16000 to 18000 watts a month" do you mean 18000 watts of continuous draw for one month, or do you mean 18000 kilowatt-hours in a month's time? Kilowatt-hours is what your meter reflects and what you are billed on. Watts is power, which means instantaneous draw of volts and amps. Watt-hours are energy, which is the integrated total power during a length of time. 18000KWh in a 30-day month (720 hours) corresponds to a 25000W continuous draw, which would be 104A at 240V, or about 65% of your rated draw assuming an 80% safety margin on 200A.

Adding 4KW to that would take you to about 76%.

When you upgraded to 200A service, did you get the wire from the transformer to your breaker panel replaced with something beefier and rated for 200A continuous draw? That could be part of the limitation. (which is what phil just mentioned while I was typing this up)

Messing up the sine wave is probably referring to power factor, which is a more complex topic where non-resistive loads and nonlinear loads cause the current and voltage waveforms to be out of sync, which causes extra transmission losses and noise the power company has to deal with. If you're using fairly cheap power supplies without good power factor correction (PFC) you're probably putting a lot of noise on the line.

I would say, based on your initial post, that it's probably best to take the electrician's advice until you learn a bit more about how power transmission and measurement works. There's a lot of things you said that don't quite make sense, which points to a lack of understanding.

To the op I have more  more thing to say the outside feeder cable is warm to the touch.  Was the sun hitting that cable?

If you wake up at 5 am and go touch the cable and it is warm to the touch  you are pulling too much power.


As sidehack mentioned    200a at 80 percent is 160 amp x 240 =  about  a 38400  watt draw    that is 38 x 24 = 912 kwatts per day max

or 27360 kwatts a month..

  BTW  I would never try that on a 200 amp system  you are mentioning  16,000 to 18,000 watts if you mean 18 kwatts x 24 x 30

you would be doing 12,960  of 27,360  you should not have hot or warm wires

[Marvell1]

Well, first you need to make sure you're using the correct units for everything. When you say "16000 to 18000 watts a month" do you mean 18000 watts of continuous draw for one month, or do you mean 18000 kilowatt-hours in a month's time? Kilowatt-hours is what your meter reflects and what you are billed on. Watts is power, which means instantaneous draw of volts and amps. Watt-hours are energy, which is the integrated total power during a length of time. 18000KWh in a 30-day month (720 hours) corresponds to a 25000W continuous draw, which would be 104A at 240V, or about 65% of your rated draw assuming an 80% safety margin on 200A.

Adding 4KW to that would take you to about 76%.

When you upgraded to 200A service, did you get the wire from the transformer to your breaker panel replaced with something beefier and rated for 200A continuous draw? That could be part of the limitation. (which is what phil just mentioned while I was typing this up)

Messing up the sine wave is probably referring to power factor, which is a more complex topic where non-resistive loads and nonlinear loads cause the current and voltage waveforms to be out of sync, which causes extra transmission losses and noise the power company has to deal with. If you're using fairly cheap power supplies without good power factor correction (PFC) you're probably putting a lot of noise on the line.

I would say, based on your initial post, that it's probably best to take the electrician's advice until you learn a bit more about how power transmission and measurement works. There's a lot of things you said that don't quite make sense, which points to a lack of understanding.

To the op I have more  more thing to say the outside feeder cable is warm to the touch.  Was the sun hitting that cable?

If you wake up at 5 am and go touch the cable and it is warm to the touch  you are pulling too much power.


As sidehack mentioned    200a at 80 percent is 160 amp x 240 =  about  a 38400  watt draw    that is 38 x 24 = 912 kwatts per day max

or 27360 kwatts a month..

  BTW  I would never try that on a 200 amp system  you are mentioning  16,000 to 18,000 watts if you mean 18 kwatts x 24 x 30

you would be doing 12,960  of 27,360  you should not have hot or warm wires

Yeah the sun is hitting the outside feeder cable I'll check the temp of the cable overnight tomorow

[Marvell1]

Well, first you need to make sure you're using the correct units for everything. When you say "16000 to 18000 watts a month" do you mean 18000 watts of continuous draw for one month, or do you mean 18000 kilowatt-hours in a month's time? Kilowatt-hours is what your meter reflects and what you are billed on. Watts is power, which means instantaneous draw of volts and amps. Watt-hours are energy, which is the integrated total power during a length of time. 18000KWh in a 30-day month (720 hours) corresponds to a 25000W continuous draw, which would be 104A at 240V, or about 65% of your rated draw assuming an 80% safety margin on 200A.

Adding 4KW to that would take you to about 76%.

When you upgraded to 200A service, did you get the wire from the transformer to your breaker panel replaced with something beefier and rated for 200A continuous draw? That could be part of the limitation. (which is what phil just mentioned while I was typing this up)

Messing up the sine wave is probably referring to power factor, which is a more complex topic where non-resistive loads and nonlinear loads cause the current and voltage waveforms to be out of sync, which causes extra transmission losses and noise the power company has to deal with. If you're using fairly cheap power supplies without good power factor correction (PFC) you're probably putting a lot of noise on the line.

I would say, based on your initial post, that it's probably best to take the electrician's advice until you learn a bit more about how power transmission and measurement works. There's a lot of things you said that don't quite make sense, which points to a lack of understanding.

I don't skimp on power supplies everthing is either Ibm 2888 psus and platinum either xfx,EVGA,quark platinum supplies

[sidehack]

Likely all those would have active PFC for probaboy 99% or better power factor. That's good.

[spazzdla]

http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacity-charts

What size are the cables going into your panel?

To the sin wave thing, tell him you will run what you feel like LMAO.  Who cares if your circuit is highly capacitive.   

All about that current.  You are technically wasting a lot of power if you are at like .6 PF but I highly doubt you are.  You can do some power factor correction but I REALLY doubt that is required.


I would 100% do the 5AM touch the wire test suggested though. 

[Sierra8561]

At what voltage do your miners run?

[-droid-]

slightly off topic.. whats the avg cost to upgrade from 125a to 200a box?  my orig 1960's 125a is maxed out

my solar company quoted me $2800

is that avg price?

[Sierra8561]

slightly off topic.. whats the avg cost to upgrade from 125a to 200a box?  my orig 1960's 125a is maxed out

my solar company quoted me $2800

is that avg price?

I bought a 300 amp box for 80.00. Fortunately my wiring was heavy duty and could handle the upgrade

[scyth3]

Hire your cousin to do the other work too, problem solved.

[bctmke]

slightly off topic.. whats the avg cost to upgrade from 125a to 200a box?  my orig 1960's 125a is maxed out

my solar company quoted me $2800

is that avg price?

I assume you mean having an electrician come in to do the work.

It's going to vary in location and the status of your current box (is it up to code, what other work needs to be done, etc).

That 2800 could be very reasonable or it could be high

[sidehack]

To the sin wave thing, tell him you will run what you feel like LMAO.  Who cares if your circuit is highly capacitive.   

The power company, for one thing. It's a law in the US, far as I know, that any single load over 75W is required to have power factor correction of some kind. Crap power factor does indeed waste a lot of power, but it's not power your meter measures so you're not directly paying for it. But you are straining the system with added current draws that can cause problems with transmission lines (including your house wiring) and the transformer at the pole. Heck, if I had a power factor of 0.6 on my shop I'd have about $1600 in added fees on my bill in a month.

[jermwerty]

Is there a good way to measure PFC for the layman?

I've always ran my PSUs hard (100+ degree garage, 70% load) and while I've only had a couple outright fail I've always wondered if their PFC degrades over time.

I'm sure there is lots of noise in general.  For example my garage door transmitter barely functions anymore when the miners are running!

[spazzdla]

To the sin wave thing, tell him you will run what you feel like LMAO.  Who cares if your circuit is highly capacitive.   

The power company, for one thing. It's a law in the US, far as I know, that any single load over 75W is required to have power factor correction of some kind. Crap power factor does indeed waste a lot of power, but it's not power your meter measures so you're not directly paying for it. But you are straining the system with added current draws that can cause problems with transmission lines (including your house wiring) and the transformer at the pole. Heck, if I had a power factor of 0.6 on my shop I'd have about $1600 in added fees on my bill in a month.

Not sure if there are any laws about PF in Canada I am sure there are.

Companies get charged a lot more for their bills once the dip below .8 PF.  I remember hearing something about that. I would do PF correction at a shop too!!  I doubt I would bother at home but with a PF of .6 maybe I would that is pretty terrible lol.

[Marvell1]

At what voltage do your miners run?

240V on everything

[Marvell1]

slightly off topic.. whats the avg cost to upgrade from 125a to 200a box?  my orig 1960's 125a is maxed out

my solar company quoted me $2800

is that avg price?

I paid my cuz $1500 for labour but the parts and everthing cost me like $800 to 900.  It was a bit more becase I had him install t he four new 30 amp circuts for my PDU's a swell and I had to get
a ton of 240v indoor 30AMP cable the orange stuff and its crazy expensive.


This might be of help to you as well and also answer questions about my build.  before my Cousin came over to help me he had me call an inspector from the city over and run this list of questions by them


My original plan was to add 200 amps + the existing panel I had turned into a subpanel with all the existing breaker stuff for the house on that and my new panel would be for mining stuff.

Cousin sent me this :
---------------------------------

You’re just going to have to let him know that you’re doing this yourself and you don’t have anybody helping you (cause that’s not allowed) and you’ve been researching a lot and that’s how you know to ask these questions.  Don’t be afraid to not know something.  You’re not an electrician and you don’t have to be.  If he asks you something about your plan and you don’t know, tell him you don’t know and ask what you should do – this shows you’re trying to get it right.  Entire plan outlined below.  If you show him this plan you need to modify it slightly so everything looks like it was not written by someone else, such as my annotations and notes to you.

Notes about your plan when you're talking with him:
3/0 is pronounced “three ought”  4/0 is pronounced “four ought”
I write 3/0 3/0 3/0 so you clarify the size of all three wires
The grounding rod is the rod sticking up out of the ground near the meter
The plan to have 100A breaker in both the main panel and sub panel may be questioned but should be ok.  ask about it
 
Main things to touch on:
 
·        Main conductors from meter outside to the new 20A main panel:
o   What size conductors and type of metal are compatible with my meter?
o   Does it matter if I use copper or aluminum?
§  For copper, I would use 3/0 3/0 3/0 THHN.
§  For aluminum, I would use 4/0 4/0 4/0
o   2” conduit entire way from meter to main panel.  Sealed with silicone where the conduit at the point of entry through the wall
·        What are the grounding requirements for the 200A service?
o   I currently have one ½” grounding rod
o   What size grounding rod will be required?  What type of metal?
o   Are one or two grounding rods required?
o   What are the requirements for connecting the rods?
§  What gauge and type of metal for the grounding wire?
o   Does the ground need to be connected (or “bonded” is what you might say) to the water pipes, gas pipes?  If so, what gauge wire
·        Panel location and height ok?  Will any plumbing need to move?
·        Sequence of events for inspection.  I think it is:
o   Power company cuts power at transformer and unlocks my meter box
o    I install the following
§  Remove existing main (aluminum) wires from meter
§  Remove existing gray conduit from meter to main panel
§  New main panel
§  New 2” conduit and wires from the meter through the wall and connect to the main panel
§  Convert 100A panel to a sub-panel
·        Re-use existing 2AWG aluminum wires, leaving them connected to the 100A panel, but instead of running to the meter they now run to the 200A panel to a 100A breaker
·        Remove green bonding screw in the 100A panel
§  30A breakers all move to new main panel.  Where wires are not long enough they will either be replaced or junction boxes will be used.
§  All other wiring from 100A panel remains untouched.  Except maybe the equipment grounding conductors are removed and connected to the new main panel instead.  IS this correct?  All the ground wires from all the old circuits remain in place
o   Inspector comes out and checks it out
o   Power company comes out and turns power back on at the transformer and locks my meter box
Big question is if you make connections in meter or if power company makes connections in meter.  The meter belongs to them but the wires from the meter to your main panel belong to you.  Ask him what else you need to know.  Write down everything he tells you or record the conversation.

After I had the city inspector come in these were the responses I got, great guy btw laid back he didn't even comment about the heat in my basement and the huge exhaust fan
poking out the lone basement window.
----------------------------------

Thanks for getting all the questions down on this plan it made the meeting with the inspector really easy.

so things we need/need to do


-Disconnect the power from the mains
-Dave the Inspector recommended to tape  carboard over the existing meter lugs so as not to accidentally touch those.

Once power is disconnected from the mains

-Add the piping for 2/0 copper conduit
-Move the old panel to the side panel area and connect the new panel shifting it up 2"-3" inches max ass needed.
Once the new panel is installe connect conduit from one of the side holes in each panel to the other panel so we don't have to run
conduit up above to re-connect the new panel via 100a or 60a breaker to the new one.
-Upgdrade the grounding connector that goes to the water main right new to the washer with new 4" copper , all one wire with no breaks like the one that's already installed.


*** I never ended up doing this but might be doing it now. *****
For adding service 200amp  to gararge

-install a lug kit for the meter to run new 2" cabling at least 18" underground to the garage and install a new panel
on the garage wall right below the stairs since the conduit entrance has to be close to the panel.

that's basically the long and short of what he told me, all in all he was in agreement with the plan. We don't Need excel since we are not installing a new
meter or new service from the pole.

------------------------------------------------

What I ended up doing was discarding the old panel and putting all the house stuff , AC,heater,lights etc on the new 200amp panel and using 4 dual slots for 30amp circuits for my mining farm.

If you look at the Excel box there is actually a third hole that can be knocked out to add that lug kit the inspector talked about and run a full 2/0 copper conduit all the way to my garage like the inspector suggested.

The current electrician thinks I need a whole new meter and crap but even the inspector did not think so at the time which is why I wonder about this electrican.

Anyways bottom line my conduit is 2/o copper , I just  checked the heat on the conduit and there's no warmth at all must have been the sun, and its 8pm here.


how do I check what my PCF is ?

[toptek]

also I'm not sure  what the feeder cable is if it's the one from the telly phone pole to the house id be ware of what the power company is to lazy to do they put under rated cables up there so i found out the hard way one burt out from tress .. not what i was doing in my house i found out then they had the wrong size up for my 200 amps service the guy from the power company told me that came to replace it.  then a few weeks later i had a main box replaced in side the house and the electrician told me in my state they can get a way with using the wrong size cable because it's state code and allowed and they do it to save money and don't care  . but so far with my service all last year i run it at or close to 30 kwh all most  every month with S5's and some older miners never once had heat issue as long as it was on 240 lines or i didn't max out the 110's  i used .

That's what outs side my house or it looks like at the smart meter but the power company did it all when they put in smart meters as part of the service which they did over time  same pvc pipes etc ..I'm sure i some how paid it back with the power bill.


but that's in Maryland.


in my state the AVG price depends on what you need the electrician I used after getting three prices to replace my main  panel last summer was 1500 with permits to upgrade the service which i didn't do but i asked  he told me he won't do that unless he has a permit . the other two wanted close to 3k and said they didn't need permits which sounded fishy to me . i liked the guy i had he seemed to care more about what he did then the cost or money.