Poll regarding rounding of Bitcoin amounts in clients

[Andreas Schildbach]

The purpose of my post is getting opinions about rounding of Bitcoin amounts.

Most clients already cut of insignificant zeros at the end. So for example, 1.22000000 gets 1.22. Still, especially if you use currency conversion frequently, you'll have a lot of crude amounts (like 0.31745883 for a burger) in your wallet. In my opinion, this makes it hard to read, especially for non-technical people.

Bitcoin Wallet currently implements a labs feature that allows you to round to either 4, 6 or 8 digits after the comma (see Preferences -> Labs -> Precision of Bitcoin values). Note that when entering amounts yourself (such as when sending a payment) you still can use any precision you like. Also, the setting of course doesn't affect any internal calculations, so there is no "adding up of rounding errors" and stuff like that.

My questions go to all of you, not only Bitcoin Wallet users:

Would you use such a feature in your client?
Do you think it makes sense, also for non-technical people?
Do you find 0.1255 easier to read than 0.125501?
Should we kind of standardize the options (4, 6 and 8 digits) for all clients?
I deliberately left the option of 2 digits out, because we're way past the "0.01 is equivalent to a penny/cent" era. Do you miss it still?
Which option should be default?

[1715124114]

1715124114

[1715124114]

1715124114

[1715124114]

1715124114

[1715124114]

1715124114

[Sukrim]

I'd recommend displaying mBTC or even µBTC by default. Additionally group thousands/millions like this: 1.00000000 BTC = 1 000 000.00 µBTC

[Andreas Schildbach]

I'd recommend displaying mBTC or even µBTC by default. Additionally group thousands/millions like this: 1.00000000 BTC = 1 000 000.00 µBTC

Ah, I forgot to mention. The "moving of the comma" topic is not the main topic of this poll.

Are groups of 1000 (as in 1 000 000) also used after the comma? I thought only before.

[Scrat Acorns]

Maybe it's just me but I don't like rounding. What I also don't like is unformatted floats.

IMHO:
1.00000000 -> 1.00
1.00001000 -> 1.00001

But then again I might be weird.

Edit: If it's an optional feature then I'm all for it.

[Andreas Schildbach]

Maybe it's just me but I don't like rounding. What I also don't like is unformatted floats.

IMHO:
1.00000000 -> 1.00
1.00001000 -> 1.00001

What's an "unformatted float"? So you like the right side and dislike the left side?

And - more to this topic - you dislike 1.00001 -> 1.0000 (because of 4 digits of precision)?

Edit: If it's an optional feature then I'm all for it.

Sure, it will stay optional (8 digits of precision means no rounding at all).

[dserrano5]

Would you use such a feature in your client?
Do you think it makes sense, also for non-technical people?
Do you find 0.1255 easier to read than 0.125501?
Should we kind of standardize the options (4, 6 and 8 digits) for all clients?

No.
E.g. my parents? yeah prolly.
No.
Wait some time, then ask people what do they use most.

[matakaonew]

Would you use such a feature in your client?
 - yeah if it's good and more like floor() that round()
Do you think it makes sense, also for non-technical people?
 -  a lot but if you have 0.109, you round it to 1.11. then something cost 1.11 and you can't buy it because you only have 0.109 and you don't know it and people will not understand.

Do you find 0.1255 easier to read than 0.125501?
 - not personnaly
Should we kind of standardize the options (4, 6 and 8 digits) for all clients?
 - yeah, but with the floor function
I deliberately left the option of 2 digits out, because we're way past the "0.01 is equivalent to a penny/cent" era. Do you miss it still?
 - no it should in fact be set to worth 0.1 cent at all time and folow mtgox
Which option should be default?
- having a floor function witch floor to the 0.1 cent depending on the value of BTC

sry for english!

[jim618]

I think there are a few apps and websites that use the 'satoshi digits' to indicate the roll of the dice etc so you will always need the option to show all 8 digits.

I think most of the time people read the first 3 or 4 digits and then the other digits hardly even register in their visual cortex. Maybe we could have the first few digits in regular sized font and then the rest in a smaller font, like this:

0.12345678

big = 10pt, small = 7pt.
The cutoff for big-small would have to be an option.
That way there would not actually be any rounding, but you'd only notice the significant digits.

[jim618]

Here is a quick mock of what those "big-small" BTC amounts look like:



Current version on the left, big-small on the right. (big:small::10:7)

[Zeilap]

I think there are a few apps and website that use the 'satoshi digits' to indicate the roll of the dice etc so you will always need the option to show all 8 digits.

I think most of the time people read the first 3 or 4 digits and then the other digits hardly even register in their visual cortex. Maybe we could have the first few digits in regular sized font and then the rest in a smaller font, like this:

0.12345678

big = 10pt, small = 7pt.
The cutoff for big/small would have to be an option.
That way there would not actually be any rounding, but you'd only notice the significant digits.

I think this is what the blockchain.info phone app does. I liked the idea when I saw it, but it looked kind of weird to me. In a similar vein to changing font size, changing the colour saturation might also work, e.g.

0.12345678

or both combined (now my favourite after clicking preview)?

0.12345678

[Andreas Schildbach]

I think there are a few apps and website that use the 'satoshi digits' to indicate the roll of the dice etc so you will always need the option to show all 8 digits.

I think most of the time people read the first 3 or 4 digits and then the other digits hardly even register in their visual cortex. Maybe we could have the first few digits in regular sized font and then the rest in a smaller font, like this:

0.12345678

big = 10pt, small = 7pt.
The cutoff for big/small would have to be an option.
That way there would not actually be any rounding, but you'd only notice the significant digits.

I think this is what the blockchain.info phone app does. I liked the idea when I saw it, but it looked kind of weird to me. In a similar vein to changing font size, changing the colour saturation might also work, e.g.

0.12345678

or both combined (now my favourite after clicking preview)?

0.12345678

Thanks for the suggestions. Bitcoin Wallet already has a highlight exactly like this: 0.12345678, the blockchain.info app just forked from Bitcoin Wallet...

The interesting info is that people seem to prefer floor to round, I would have never expected this. Any opinions towards round?

[jim618]

I think floor is superior to round as you always want to know 'Do I have enough money ?"

If you show amount = floor(total) then you have at least that amount to spend, whereas with round you aren't sure if you can afford the amount shown.

[Andreas Schildbach]

I think floor is superior to round as you always want to know 'Do I have enough money ?"

If you show amount = floor(total) then you have at least that amount to spend, whereas with round you aren't sure if you can afford the amount shown.

Ok, for the wallet balance this seems reasonable. Does the same logic apply to payments sent and payments received (transactions list)?

[jim618]

No I don't think so.

For the currency conversions in MultiBit I use round-even when displaying the equivalent currency amount.

If I was going to round the BTC I'd probably use round-even too. If it is 1.99999999 you'd want to show it as "2.00000" say rather than "1.99999".

It means if you add up the rounded amounts you won't get the total balance but rounding is lossy so you cannot expect it to be the same.

[nwbitcoin]

This is going to be a huge problem for mainstream uptake of bitcoin.

The way that bitcoin is deflating against fiat currencies means that very soon a single BTC is going to be useless for day to day use.  This means that there are going to be a lot of zeros and points in funny places if we carry on with the current system.

Maybe we need to start looking at this from the other side of the decimal point.

Maybe its time to consider that the unit of interest to the public should be the Satoshi.

A Big Mac would cost 0.12345678 bitcoins, but that too complex.  Its still too big, and with the public being used to 5 numbers as a maximum while out shopping, it would make sense to carry on the tradition.

What if it cost 12345678 Satoshi and forget the decimal?

From a commercial angle, why not call it 12.34 Mega Satoshis.  As inflation kicks in and a Big Mac costs 0.00123456, this will become 123 000 Satoshi but that could be in time for the mainstream takeup.

I know that on face value, this looks to be going against the grain, but in the grand scheme of things, the public needs as little difference to their fiat currency as possible. Having a figure which is a fraction of a fraction is really hard work to compare with a positive number in the 10s or hundreds.

From the wallet perspective, it should make no difference, its just how its presented.

Would love some feedback on this idea!

[solomon]

words

This dawned on me a few weeks ago, and i agree. It's both less practical and makes the transition much harder for those new to bitcoin when things are being bought and sold for 0.00xxxxxx.
I think  it would aid bitcoin to have figures in the range of other currencies that people are used to. It's quite alien to most people exchanging decimal amounts of anything. I think it will be more of a hurdle psycologically for newcomers to trade in what they consider a decent amount in fiat and 'only' receive a few decimals.

I think the easiest way is to normalise the use of mBTC in stores and exchanges, although it may cause some confusion, i'm not sure. Maybe Sato's is better

[dree12]

This is going to be a huge problem for mainstream uptake of bitcoin.

The way that bitcoin is deflating against fiat currencies means that very soon a single BTC is going to be useless for day to day use.  This means that there are going to be a lot of zeros and points in funny places if we carry on with the current system.

Maybe we need to start looking at this from the other side of the decimal point.

Maybe its time to consider that the unit of interest to the public should be the Satoshi.

A Big Mac would cost 0.12345678 bitcoins, but that too complex.  Its still too big, and with the public being used to 5 numbers as a maximum while out shopping, it would make sense to carry on the tradition.

What if it cost 12345678 Satoshi and forget the decimal?

From a commercial angle, why not call it 12.34 Mega Satoshis.  As inflation kicks in and a Big Mac costs 0.00123456, this will become 123 000 Satoshi but that could be in time for the mainstream takeup.

I know that on face value, this looks to be going against the grain, but in the grand scheme of things, the public needs as little difference to their fiat currency as possible. Having a figure which is a fraction of a fraction is really hard work to compare with a positive number in the 10s or hundreds.

From the wallet perspective, it should make no difference, its just how its presented.

Would love some feedback on this idea!

A satoshi won't be the smallest for long. We should use the nBTC (nanobitcoin) as the base unit, so that we can maintain the current BTC unit as simply bitcoin and go down from there.

[solex]

This is going to be a huge problem for mainstream uptake of bitcoin.

The way that bitcoin is deflating against fiat currencies means that very soon a single BTC is going to be useless for day to day use.  This means that there are going to be a lot of zeros and points in funny places if we carry on with the current system.

Maybe we need to start looking at this from the other side of the decimal point.

Maybe its time to consider that the unit of interest to the public should be the Satoshi.

A Big Mac would cost 0.12345678 bitcoins, but that too complex.  Its still too big, and with the public being used to 5 numbers as a maximum while out shopping, it would make sense to carry on the tradition.

What if it cost 12345678 Satoshi and forget the decimal?

From a commercial angle, why not call it 12.34 Mega Satoshis.  As inflation kicks in and a Big Mac costs 0.00123456, this will become 123 000 Satoshi but that could be in time for the mainstream takeup.

I know that on face value, this looks to be going against the grain, but in the grand scheme of things, the public needs as little difference to their fiat currency as possible. Having a figure which is a fraction of a fraction is really hard work to compare with a positive number in the 10s or hundreds.

From the wallet perspective, it should make no difference, its just how its presented.

Would love some feedback on this idea!

nwbitcoin, +1 for thinking through detail that most people just ignore.

For a while now I have been thinking that the twin Bitcoin "features" of many decimal places and serious deflation will be a real road-block to widespread casual adoption. People need to be able to quickly compare and absorb prices. How to do it?

The answer is by using existing fiat values. So, what is needed is a new type of "virtual fiat" wallet, call it the VF-Wallet and similarly for clients, a VF-Client.

What these do is allow users to select from a multi-choice the fiat they are used to, then it displays all the price values in fiat. However, no real fiat is involved. The actual transaction takes place entirely in Bitcoin with an fx rate determined by a weighted average of the main Bitcoin exchanges last execution price.

Merchants making many transactions would average out on the fx rate they receive.

[nwbitcoin]

This is going to be a huge problem for mainstream uptake of bitcoin.

The way that bitcoin is deflating against fiat currencies means that very soon a single BTC is going to be useless for day to day use.  This means that there are going to be a lot of zeros and points in funny places if we carry on with the current system.

Maybe we need to start looking at this from the other side of the decimal point.

Maybe its time to consider that the unit of interest to the public should be the Satoshi.

A Big Mac would cost 0.12345678 bitcoins, but that too complex.  Its still too big, and with the public being used to 5 numbers as a maximum while out shopping, it would make sense to carry on the tradition.

What if it cost 12345678 Satoshi and forget the decimal?

From a commercial angle, why not call it 12.34 Mega Satoshis.  As inflation kicks in and a Big Mac costs 0.00123456, this will become 123 000 Satoshi but that could be in time for the mainstream takeup.

I know that on face value, this looks to be going against the grain, but in the grand scheme of things, the public needs as little difference to their fiat currency as possible. Having a figure which is a fraction of a fraction is really hard work to compare with a positive number in the 10s or hundreds.

From the wallet perspective, it should make no difference, its just how its presented.

Would love some feedback on this idea!

nwbitcoin, +1 for thinking through detail that most people just ignore.

For a while now I have been thinking that the twin Bitcoin "features" of many decimal places and serious deflation will be a real road-block to widespread casual adoption. People need to be able to quickly compare and absorb prices. How to do it?

The answer is by using existing fiat values. So, what is needed is a new type of "virtual fiat" wallet, call it the VF-Wallet and similarly for clients, a VF-Client.

What these do is allow users to select from a multi-choice the fiat they are used to, then it displays all the price values in fiat. However, no real fiat is involved. The actual transaction takes place entirely in Bitcoin with an fx rate determined by a weighted average of the main Bitcoin exchanges last execution price.

Merchants making many transactions would average out on the fx rate they receive.

Yes, that is the answer!

If everyone is carrying a simple exchange in their pockets, then while their minds are spending Dollars, Pounds, Yen or Euros, they are really spending bitcoins where that is the cheapest option. 
If you think of it like the way the telephone network was derestricted, and people could choose to use voip or traditional pbx.  The only thing they actually cared about was talking to Aunt Bessie for the least cost.  That is what this wallet would allow.

Use bitcoins to make stuff cheaper by using a virtual fiat wallet!

You want mainstream take up?  This might be how we are going to convince people to try it out!

[solex]

This is going to be a huge problem for mainstream uptake of bitcoin.

The way that bitcoin is deflating against fiat currencies means that very soon a single BTC is going to be useless for day to day use.  This means that there are going to be a lot of zeros and points in funny places if we carry on with the current system.

Maybe we need to start looking at this from the other side of the decimal point.

Maybe its time to consider that the unit of interest to the public should be the Satoshi.

A Big Mac would cost 0.12345678 bitcoins, but that too complex.  Its still too big, and with the public being used to 5 numbers as a maximum while out shopping, it would make sense to carry on the tradition.

What if it cost 12345678 Satoshi and forget the decimal?

From a commercial angle, why not call it 12.34 Mega Satoshis.  As inflation kicks in and a Big Mac costs 0.00123456, this will become 123 000 Satoshi but that could be in time for the mainstream takeup.

I know that on face value, this looks to be going against the grain, but in the grand scheme of things, the public needs as little difference to their fiat currency as possible. Having a figure which is a fraction of a fraction is really hard work to compare with a positive number in the 10s or hundreds.

From the wallet perspective, it should make no difference, its just how its presented.

Would love some feedback on this idea!

nwbitcoin, +1 for thinking through detail that most people just ignore.

For a while now I have been thinking that the twin Bitcoin "features" of many decimal places and serious deflation will be a real road-block to widespread casual adoption. People need to be able to quickly compare and absorb prices. How to do it?

The answer is by using existing fiat values. So, what is needed is a new type of "virtual fiat" wallet, call it the VF-Wallet and similarly for clients, a VF-Client.

What these do is allow users to select from a multi-choice the fiat they are used to, then it displays all the price values in fiat. However, no real fiat is involved. The actual transaction takes place entirely in Bitcoin with an fx rate determined by a weighted average of the main Bitcoin exchanges last execution price.

Merchants making many transactions would average out on the fx rate they receive.

Yes, that is the answer!

If everyone is carrying a simple exchange in their pockets, then while their minds are spending Dollars, Pounds, Yen or Euros, they are really spending bitcoins where that is the cheapest option.  
If you think of it like the way the telephone network was derestricted, and people could choose to use voip or traditional pbx.  The only thing they actually cared about was talking to Aunt Bessie for the least cost.  That is what this wallet would allow.

Use bitcoins to make stuff cheaper by using a virtual fiat wallet!

You want mainstream take up?  This might be how we are going to convince people to try it out!

Agreed!  This could be the Bitcoin fiat-killer app which takes the mainstream by storm. I was going to do a fancy new post announcing the VF-Wallet/Client idea, with a bit of background and collaborative input.  Been distracted lately instead hammering on about two much more pressing issues which need to be addressed first: the 1Mb max block size, and the lack of an ISO code for Bitcoin. No good taking it mainstream when it is simply not up to the job.