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Question: Do you think Bitcointalk should baned accounts sales ?
Yes - 31 (58.5%)
No - 22 (41.5%)
Total Voters: 53

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Author Topic: selling Bitcointalk accounts shouldn't be allowed..  (Read 2415 times)
Quickseller
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June 07, 2016, 08:45:03 AM
 #21

This topic is brought up way too often and the conclusion is that admins/mods can't stop the black market trade of these accounts.
even if the mods could make the sale of an account extremely difficult. That would just hike up the price of the accounts and make them far more sought after.
why do you think prices would go up?

As it stands now, most sold accounts are used for non-scamming purposes, and if the sale of accounts were disallowed then the buyers who buy accounts for non-scamming purposes would no longer wish to buy accounts, but the number of accounts for sale would remain the same. Basic economics would imply that the price would go down, reducing the costs to potential scammers
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June 07, 2016, 09:09:37 AM
 #22

This would also have a lot of unintended consequences.
-snip-
I actually have no problem with that. People will try to scam either way. It isn't even hard to avoid scammers, and it is quite rare that someone that is 'trusted' engages in such behavior. The spam is the primary problem in this situation, not the scams.

All of the above will also encourage people to scam via buying accounts, which will only exaggerate the above problems. 
Not doing anything exaggerates the problems the most.

even if the mods could make the sale of an account extremely difficult. That would just hike up the price of the accounts and make them far more sought after.
No. The opposite would happen as it would be risky to engage in account trades. Read QS's post.


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June 07, 2016, 09:29:39 AM
 #23

This would also have a lot of unintended consequences.
-snip-
I actually have no problem with that. People will try to scam either way. It isn't even hard to avoid scammers, and it is quite rare that someone that is 'trusted' engages in such behavior. The spam is the primary problem in this situation, not the scams.

All of the above will also encourage people to scam via buying accounts, which will only exaggerate the above problems. 
Not doing anything exaggerates the problems the most.

even if the mods could make the sale of an account extremely difficult. That would just hike up the price of the accounts and make them far more sought after.
No. The opposite would happen as it would be risky to engage in account trades. Read QS's post.


anything sold illegally has a higher price, thats the point of the black market. guns and drugs are sold at high prices because oft he risk involved

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June 07, 2016, 11:52:23 AM
Last edit: June 07, 2016, 01:56:39 PM by tmfp
 #24

As it stands now, most sold accounts are used for non-scamming purposes

Do you state this from your first hand involvement in Account trading?
What are "non scamming" purposes? Presumably they involve a financial benefit, so are you referring to signature campaign income?

 
Quote
if the sale of accounts were disallowed then the buyers who buy accounts for non-scamming purposes would no longer wish to buy accounts

Which would mean that "the non-scamming purpose" market would shrink, or need to be opened up to newbies.

Quote
but the number of accounts for sale would remain the same.

No it wouldn't, it would mean that account farming would be much less attractive because of the danger of all the accounts belonging to the farmer being rendered worthless.

Quote
Basic economics would imply that the price would go down, reducing the costs to potential scammers

No, because above: supply would drastically reduce.
Unless you're talking about the $10 loan market, does the cost of an account really figure in the number of scams pulled? Imo, no, IYO, probably yes.

Tl,dr:

Pros

More difficult for scammers
Less sig spam
Account farming made unprofitable

Cons

None.

But nothing will change.

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June 07, 2016, 02:02:41 PM
 #25

This topic is brought up way too often and the conclusion is that admins/mods can't stop the black market trade of these accounts.
even if the mods could make the sale of an account extremely difficult. That would just hike up the price of the accounts and make them far more sought after.
why do you think prices would go up?

As it stands now, most sold accounts are used for non-scamming purposes, and if the sale of accounts were disallowed then the buyers who buy accounts for non-scamming purposes would no longer wish to buy accounts, but the number of accounts for sale would remain the same. Basic economics would imply that the price would go down, reducing the costs to potential scammers

If the forum just bans account sales, there will be less people who will go ahead and buy an account. There will be less people trying to sell accounts openly. Less accounts going as collateral for loans. Less spam. Less scams.

That is, the entire market for account sales will shrink (demand and supply, though I can't say which will be more or less).

The only problem I see with that is, as you pointed out there will still be trades going on outside the forum which will be risky (very probable that an escrow will not be used and much more likely to be scammed).
Well the only reason why accounts are being bought and sold are, directly or indirectly, to make useless posts for a campaign or to scam. So why not?

Suggestion: Ban account sales from 10th June to 10th August and see how it goes?
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June 07, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
 #26

This topic is brought up way too often and the conclusion is that admins/mods can't stop the black market trade of these accounts.
even if the mods could make the sale of an account extremely difficult. That would just hike up the price of the accounts and make them far more sought after.
why do you think prices would go up?

As it stands now, most sold accounts are used for non-scamming purposes, and if the sale of accounts were disallowed then the buyers who buy accounts for non-scamming purposes would no longer wish to buy accounts, but the number of accounts for sale would remain the same. Basic economics would imply that the price would go down, reducing the costs to potential scammers

If the forum just bans account sales, there will be less people who will go ahead and buy an account. There will be less people trying to sell accounts openly. Less accounts going as collateral for loans. Less spam. Less scams.

That is, the entire market for account sales will shrink (demand and supply, though I can't say which will be more or less).

The only problem I see with that is, as you pointed out there will still be trades going on outside the forum which will be risky (very probable that an escrow will not be used and much more likely to be scammed).
Well the only reason why accounts are being bought and sold are, directly or indirectly, to make useless posts for a campaign or to scam. So why not?

Suggestion: Ban account sales from 10th June to 10th August and see how it goes?
Couldn't have said it better myself.   The bottom line for me is that both parties in an account sale cannot be trusted, much like the people who come on this forum to offer prescription medications for sale cannot be trusted.

I'm on the receiving end of a lot of butthurt because of my negative trust that I'm leaving lately.   Well, that's our trust system.   You can scream bloody murder until your uvula explodes, but I'm not deleting any of it. 

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beastmodeBiscuitGravy
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June 07, 2016, 08:57:51 PM
 #27

1. Accounts are sold because the Signature Ads they can run pay more.

2. People post meaningless drivel to get paid for their Signature Ads.

3. More people posting more meaningless drivel means more hits on the site.

4. More hits on the site means Theymos can rake in more income from his own site ads.

5. After taking in millions of $ worth of BTC "donations" from old timers, well, Theymos just needs to suck a little bit more out of this "community".

6. Use raised funds to pay "moderators" who help steer Bitcoin development in the direction his friends at Blockstream want/need it to go.

7. Sleep like a baby, content that you have been an excellent steward of this decentralized and trustless system.

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June 08, 2016, 04:08:02 AM
 #28

1. Accounts are sold because the Signature Ads they can run pay more.
Yes this is true. Account are sold to newcomers to this forum, and for a fee they don't have to be branded newbies.
Quote
2. People post meaningless drivel to get paid for their Signature Ads.
I agree with you on this point. Look at the economics section, and you'll see pointless drivel posted over and over again
Quote
3. More people posting more meaningless drivel means more hits on the site.
Not necessarily, most search engines are designed to filter out spam/irrelevant content, though this site has a high pagerank.
Quote
4. More hits on the site means Theymos can rake in more income from his own site ads.

5. After taking in millions of $ worth of BTC "donations" from old timers, well, Theymos just needs to suck a little bit more out of this "community".

6. Use raised funds to pay "moderators" who help steer Bitcoin development in the direction his friends at Blockstream want/need it to go.

7. Sleep like a baby, content that you have been an excellent steward of this decentralized and trustless system.


I do not agree with you on these last points. there is nothing wrong with Theymos having millions of dollars off of Bitcoin. Your suggestion that he is using the donations and the extra money from his own ads to pay the moderators and Bitcoin developers is complete nonsense. this may be a big forum, but there is a Bitcoin community beyond this forum. Sure, the develops post here, but your accusation is just a conspiracy theory.

Signatures? How about learning a skill... I don't care either way. Everybody has to make a living somehow.
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June 08, 2016, 05:45:32 AM
 #29

As time goes on, the value of accounts go down. More and more farmers will rank up and flood the market. There's no way you can stop account sales. People even sell other forum accounts even here!

looking for a signature campaign, dm me for that
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June 08, 2016, 06:18:22 AM
 #30

As it stands now, most sold accounts are used for non-scamming purposes

Do you state this from your first hand involvement in Account trading?
Yes as well as my observations of what are clearly sold accounts.

As of a little over a year ago, when I stopped dealing in accounts, virtually none (probably less then 5%) of sold accounts would be used in scam attempts. I think this number might have increased somewhat recently as prices seems to have fallen by a decent amount (making it cheaper to attempt to scam), but I still think the number of sold accounts used in a scam attempt (not necessarily a successful one) is very low. I also suspect that many of the accounts used in scam attempts were controlled by a very small number of people at the time of their scam attempts.
What are "non scamming" purposes? Presumably they involve a financial benefit, so are you referring to signature campaign income?
Yes, primarily for signature deals, however some people seemed to want to get around the posting limits, and some wanted to use their purchased accounts to start a business (and would eventually wind down the business without any kind of scam accusations and/or major controversies).

Quote
if the sale of accounts were disallowed then the buyers who buy accounts for non-scamming purposes would no longer wish to buy accounts

Which would mean that "the non-scamming purpose" market would shrink, or need to be opened up to newbies.

Quote
but the number of accounts for sale would remain the same.

No it wouldn't, it would mean that account farming would be much less attractive because of the danger of all the accounts belonging to the farmer being rendered worthless.
This might be true, I am not sure.

I would think of it this way: The forum is not going to ever limit the number of accounts that someone can have, this is simply against it's political beliefs. If for example someone were to start selling accounts on another forum and/or on reddit, then whenever one of their accounts would show up to the admins as belonging to someone else then the seller could simply claim that they were hacked to avoid all of their accounts getting banned. On the other hand, the one sold account could potentially end up getting banned, which would turn off potential legit buyers.


Quote
Basic economics would imply that the price would go down, reducing the costs to potential scammers

No, because above: supply would drastically reduce.
Unless you're talking about the $10 loan market, does the cost of an account really figure in the number of scams pulled? Imo, no, IYO, probably yes.
It used to be that hero accounts without any kind of trust/reputation (or even an avatar) would sell for well over $1,500, however the cost has since come down significantly due to increased supply of hero accounts, and legendary accounts (as well as all other ranks of accounts) have seen similar declines in prices -- at least from what I have seen. When an account has negative trust, it's value tends to go to nearly zero.

I would ask you this; how many people on here would you the average user, trust with $750 (half of what the cost of hero account used to cost)? How many people would you trust with $130 (the selling price on this auction for a hero account)? If the value of an account goes to nearly zero after a scam attempt is made public, then a potential scammer will both have to risk a higher amount and need to steal a higher amount in order to potentially profit off of an expensive account. Also if someone has a more expensive account, and people know such account is very valuable, then maybe more people will trust the expensive account with $130, however the owner of this account might be able to make $10 off of this trade, and if they repeat this enough times then maybe they will be able to make back the cost of their account.

Tl,dr:

Pros

More difficult for scammers
I am curious to know why you think banning the sale of accounts will make it more difficult for scammers. The banning of accounts will simply move the sale of accounts to other forums and/or reddit. Both of these places will have trusted members within their communities who can act as an escrow service. I really don't think that creating a reddit account and/or an account on some other trading forum is all that difficult.

If the forum just bans account sales, there will be less people who will go ahead and buy an account. There will be less people trying to sell accounts openly. Less accounts going as collateral for loans. Less spam. Less scams.

That is, the entire market for account sales will shrink (demand and supply, though I can't say which will be more or less).
I pointed out above that legit buyers of accounts would potentially get banned if the sale of accounts were to get banned, while the seller of accounts could claim that they got hacked. The forum will generally will not take action unless there is (very) solid evidence, so I believe that the seller would probably get the benefit of the doubt, while the buyer really will not have any explanation as to what they are doing with someone else's account.

 
The only problem I see with that is, as you pointed out there will still be trades going on outside the forum which will be risky (very probable that an escrow will not be used and much more likely to be scammed).
Why do you think this? There are escrows on forum.bitcoin.com, there are escrows on reddit, and I assume that there are escrows on other marketplace-like forums. The forum administration of bitcointalk has zero influence on what is allowed on other forums, and influential members of the community here likely has a diminished level of influence of influence within other communities that are separate from bitcointalk.

Well the only reason why accounts are being bought and sold are, directly or indirectly, to make useless posts for a campaign or to scam. So why not?
Maybe BadBear and/or theymos and/or another mod can comment on this, however from what I can tell, the account farmers (eg sellers) are worse with the spam then the people buying accounts for signature campaign purposes.


One other point that I forgot to mention previously, is that if someone is in need of money (who is not in the business of farming accounts) can potentially raise some money via the sale of their account. If this person does not have this option then, if they are desperate enough they may decide to attempt to pull off a scam to raise the money they need.

Suggestion: Ban account sales from 10th June to 10th August and see how it goes?
[/quote]
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June 08, 2016, 11:22:06 AM
 #31

I agree with you on this point. Look at the economics section, and you'll see pointless drivel posted over and over again
I mean, you do have first hand experience with this point as well. Good to see that whole "I hate signature campaigns and I'm not joining one again" is going well for you too, child.

Not necessarily, most search engines are designed to filter out spam/irrelevant content, though this site has a high pagerank.
It's simpler than that. More people that are here spamming bullshit, more people are giving traffic to the site spamming bullshit. It has nothing to do with search engines.
That, and I highly doubt that a search engine will not index any page on this forum because it sees it as spam.

Your suggestion that he is using the donations and the extra money from his own ads to pay the moderators ... is complete nonsense.
Moderators are rewarded monetarily for the work they do on the forum by theymos. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

snip
In reply to this, I believe you're half right. All up until you started trying to shove an unrelated agenda into your point.
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June 08, 2016, 12:03:55 PM
 #32

How about we make it a policy that the original owner of the account is the true owner and can always claim the account back.
That way if an account is sold the buyer would have the risk of the seller claiming it back, making it too risky for people to buy accounts. I think if that policy were enacted then the amount of sold accounts would plummet. There would be no need to ban sales threads or whatever as it would simply be too risky to buy an account, much like it is too risky to buy a steam account. Those are rarely sold and when they are usually the buyer ends up out of pocket.
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June 08, 2016, 12:09:01 PM
 #33

Quote
I mean, you do have first hand experience with this point as well. Good to see that whole "I hate signature campaigns and I'm not joining one again" is going well for you too, child.

Wow. a personal attack. you sure are good at debating here. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since it;s just a personal attack. Your the child. adults don't call people names.

Signatures? How about learning a skill... I don't care either way. Everybody has to make a living somehow.
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June 08, 2016, 12:15:14 PM
 #34

If the forum just bans account sales, there will be less people who will go ahead and buy an account. There will be less people trying to sell accounts openly. Less accounts going as collateral for loans. Less spam. Less scams.

That is, the entire market for account sales will shrink (demand and supply, though I can't say which will be more or less).
I pointed out above that legit buyers of accounts would potentially get banned if the sale of accounts were to get banned, while the seller of accounts could claim that they got hacked. The forum will generally will not take action unless there is (very) solid evidence, so I believe that the seller would probably get the benefit of the doubt, while the buyer really will not have any explanation as to what they are doing with someone else's account.

Which discourages buying Grin
Quote
there will be less people who will go ahead and buy an account.
(though I didn't think all that. Well if we are implementing a ban, it should be done gradually, so most will be aware of the rules when the rules get strict.)

I assume the buyer in the case will most likely be a newbie anyway, who wants to "earn" from posting and well.. he just broke a rule. It won't be very easy for the seller to claim and convince others his account was hacked.


 
Quote
The only problem I see with that is, as you pointed out there will still be trades going on outside the forum which will be risky (very probable that an escrow will not be used and much more likely to be scammed).

Why do you think this? There are escrows on forum.bitcoin.com, there are escrows on reddit, and I assume that there are escrows on other marketplace-like forums. The forum administration of bitcointalk has zero influence on what is allowed on other forums, and influential members of the community here likely has a diminished level of influence of influence within other communities that are separate from bitcointalk.

Well I am not familiar with forum.bitcoin.com, and that is just my opinion. My point is, if someone Google's it (ignoring the bitcointalk.org results) the next ones may not be one in which the person is active at or familiar with, naturally he will not be aware of the escrow providers there (and the seller may not be very encouraging), and I am sure not many will take some time and do the research.
May be the seller can even claim the account was "hacked" with better chance of success.

Either way, the chances of getting scammed outside the forum are high.



Quote
Well the only reason why accounts are being bought and sold are, directly or indirectly, to make useless posts for a campaign or to scam. So why not?

Maybe BadBear and/or theymos and/or another mod can comment on this, however from what I can tell, the account farmers (eg sellers) are worse with the spam then the people buying accounts for signature campaign purposes.

I agree though it may not be correct in all cases. Sometimes the buyer become the seller later.
Banning account sales will mean less account farming for selling.



Quote
One other point that I forgot to mention previously, is that if someone is in need of money (who is not in the business of farming accounts) can potentially raise some money via the sale of their account. If this person does not have this option then, if they are desperate enough they may decide to attempt to pull off a scam to raise the money they need.

To be honest, if I need some money, I would just do something in the RL..
Selling my account wouldn't get me a "lot" of money anyway lol


Suggestion: Ban account sales from 10th June to 10th August and see how it goes?
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June 08, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
 #35

Moderators are rewarded monetarily for the work they do on the forum by theymos. I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Completely correct.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since it;s just a personal attack.
You just did.

I agree though it may not be correct in all cases. Sometimes the buyer become the seller later.
Banning account sales will mean less account farming for selling.
Imagine it this way: All that accounts (and users that have tried to sell/buy them) that have been traded so far are permanently banned. Would it not have a positive affect?

To be honest, if I need some money, I would just do something in the RL.. Selling my account wouldn't get me a "lot" of money anyway lol
Exactly. That's a pointless argument (do people sell their e.g. 'FB accounts' when they need money? Hint: No.).

Suggestion: Ban account sales from 10th June to 10th August and see how it goes?
I don't think that we can draw to a conclusion from such a specific and small amount of data. In addition to that, this is pointless without permanent bans (IMO).


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June 08, 2016, 01:32:12 PM
 #36

Wow. a personal attack. you sure are good at debating here.
There was any debate? I just thought I should point out how hypocritical you're being, maybe hoping you won't pull the same shit for the third time in a month or two. I apologize if I said it harshly.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since it;s just a personal attack.
Apart from, if you read it, I pretty much agreed with you for the rest of my post (apart from I corrected you in a few places you were wrong).

adults don't call people names.
Neither do they change their mind like the weather on their paid signature, coincidentally only when they get punished for spamming.
Adults do read people's posts and reply to their points, regardless of whether said points hurt their feelings or not.
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June 08, 2016, 08:37:26 PM
 #37

Wow. a personal attack. you sure are good at debating here.
There was any debate? I just thought I should point out how hypocritical you're being, maybe hoping you won't pull the same shit for the third time in a month or two. I apologize if I said it harshly.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since it;s just a personal attack.
Apart from, if you read it, I pretty much agreed with you for the rest of my post (apart from I corrected you in a few places you were wrong).

adults don't call people names.
Neither do they change their mind like the weather on their paid signature, coincidentally only when they get punished for spamming.
Adults do read people's posts and reply to their points, regardless of whether said points hurt their feelings or not.

I accept your apology. This hasn't been the first time you called me names. In one thread a while back you called me a "cunt". I can only interpret your posts to be constructed deliberately hurt my feelings. But as I said I accept your apology. Have a good day/night whenever you read this.

Signatures? How about learning a skill... I don't care either way. Everybody has to make a living somehow.
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June 08, 2016, 10:05:14 PM
 #38

In one thread a while back you called me a "cunt".
For what I believe is a good reason. You were looking to develop/get help with something that severely damages a business that I have helped others with for years. Regardless, this is not on topic so let's not discuss it here.

Have a good day/night whenever you read this.
You too.

(do people sell their e.g. 'FB accounts' when they need money? Hint: No.).
While I do agree with you, this is a moot point since it has happened on the forum in the past.
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June 08, 2016, 10:09:04 PM
 #39

I can't vote? because I'm noob?  Huh  Cheesy
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June 08, 2016, 10:13:39 PM
 #40

Exactly. That's a pointless argument (do people sell their e.g. 'FB accounts' when they need money? Hint: No.).

People who farm FB accounts sell them. There is a significant market for FB accounts, especially FB pages that have lots of likes.

example:
https://buyaccs.com/en/buy-bulk-facebook-accounts.php
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