Can we still say that BTC transactions are faster?

[Assmaster2000]

So you agree, bitcoin's fast, like checks in the mail?  or?

Stop with the false analogies. Bitcoin is faster than anything available from the traditional system.

Not joking, explain the difference between me subscribing to a magazine and mailing a check, and your 0-confirm transactions. Penny Stock Weekly won't be able to spend the check I sent them until it clears, your trading partner won't be able to spend the unconfirmed transaction. Where's the difference?

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[TastyChillySauce00]

So you agree, bitcoin's fast, like checks in the mail?  or?

Stop with the false analogies. Bitcoin is faster than anything available from the traditional system.

Not joking, explain the difference between me subscribing to a magazine and mailing a check, and your 0-confirm transactions. Penny Stock Weekly won't be able to spend the check I sent them until it clears, your trading partner won't be able to spend the unconfirmed transaction. Where's the difference?

using blockchain.info still can spend an unconfirmed balance in the old version, don't know with the latest blockchain.info version but once the balance confirmed,the bitcoin which has been spent will get confirmed too and it doesn't take too many time sometimes

[Assmaster2000]

So you agree, bitcoin's fast, like checks in the mail?  or?

Stop with the false analogies. Bitcoin is faster than anything available from the traditional system.

Not joking, explain the difference between me subscribing to a magazine and mailing a check, and your 0-confirm transactions. Penny Stock Weekly won't be able to spend the check I sent them until it clears, your trading partner won't be able to spend the unconfirmed transaction. Where's the difference?

using blockchain.info still can spend an unconfirmed balance in the old version, don't know with the latest blockchain.info version but once the balance confirmed,the bitcoin which has been spent will get confirmed too and it doesn't take too many time sometimes

So I can send myself money with 0tx fee, spend it from the recipient wallet, and, when it fails to confirm and comes back, like it would likely do here:

Dont know will takes how long the transaction will get confirm or will get rejected.

If you're asking us how long it will take for the transaction to be added to a block: nobody knows... It can happen 10 seconds from now, or it can take several days (or more).
It's all pure luck. A miner decides which transactions he'll put in the block he's mining. He might chose your transaction, or he might chose somebody else's... A lot of times, miners chose the transactions with the highest fee per byte, some of them do make exceptions tough. Maybe one of the pool operators takes pitty and adds your transaction out of kindness, you never know

Good luck!

The future is finally here.

...I can rinse and repeat? That's so cool!

[Lauda]

Not joking, explain the difference between me subscribing to a magazine and mailing a check, and your 0-confirm transactions. Penny Stock Weekly won't be able to spend the check I sent them until it clears, your trading partner won't be able to spend the unconfirmed transaction. Where's the difference?

So you're saying the following:

• Double-spending a TX is easy and can be done by anyone
• It takes the same amount of time for a unconfirmed TX to get confirmed as it takes a check to be cleared.

The time difference is huge. We are talking about proper TX's here.
Update: I'm not going to waste more time on you. What you're trying to pinpoint is not of relevance.

[Assmaster2000]

Not joking, explain the difference between me subscribing to a magazine and mailing a check, and your 0-confirm transactions. Penny Stock Weekly won't be able to spend the check I sent them until it clears, your trading partner won't be able to spend the unconfirmed transaction. Where's the difference?

So you're saying the following:

• Double-spending a TX is easy and can be done by anyone
• It takes the same amount of time for a unconfirmed TX to get confirmed as it takes a check to be cleared.

Neither one is true.

I'm asking you to explain the difference between an unconfirmed transaction and a check in the mail (which hasn't cleared). I can rephrase the question again, if you wish.
To put this back in context:

Wrong. Transaction time is: ~1-3 seconds. Confirmation time is: ~10 Minutes.

Dropping a check in the mail is ~1-3 seconds too. Of course, the recipient won't be able to spend the money until the check clears, but that's no different from your unconfirmed transaction.

edit: Yes, a check takes longer than 10 minutes to clear, though 10 minutes is far longer than "~1-3 seconds." Speed of BTC confirms is a different topic. We're looking for fundamental differences between an uncleared check & unconfirmed bitcoin transaction. Update: I'm not going to waste more time on you. plz no!!

[socks435]

For me as my observation about the speed of the transaction between the send and receiver it takes 10 minutes before your transaction get confirm this is fastest experience in bitcoin unlike before.. Before it takes 3 minutes or instant.. unlike now..
If we compare paypal in bitcoin for transacting funds paypal is fastest and instant.. unlike bitcoin it takes 10 minutes this is just my experience as of now.. even you are increasing the miners fee..

[ardentvolcanoes]

lol it takes so many confirmations before you received a bitcoin from external account and also sending a bitcoin takes so much confirmations it will need so much time to pass before the transactions are successfully confirmed . bitcoin transactions are not getting faster instead they getting slower .

[erickkyut]

Sometimes it really took a few hours before you send a Bitcoin. Sometimes the problem is on the block chain, the confirmation of your transaction took too pong.

[Moneroman88]

Can we still say that bitcoin transactions are faster?
I have send some of my bitcoins to an address and about one hour has been passed but still there is not even a single confirmation.

what do you say about the transaction timing?

If you mean faster compared to bank transactions then that applies in most cases. Faster than other, more anonymous cryptocurrencies, no. There are faster alternatives with less blockchain bloatage available.

[romero121]

For me as my observation about the speed of the transaction between the send and receiver it takes 10 minutes before your transaction get confirm this is fastest experience in bitcoin unlike before.. Before it takes 3 minutes or instant.. unlike now..
If we compare paypal in bitcoin for transacting funds paypal is fastest and instant.. unlike bitcoin it takes 10 minutes this is just my experience as of now.. even you are increasing the miners fee..

Yeah PayPal has the constant time for every transaction. For this reason people find it to be faster but with bitcoin upon sending itself it reaches with the statement of unconfirmed transaction. Some even get confirmed in a short some take long time. This doesn't mean the amount is not transacted.

[DannyHamilton]

We're looking for fundamental differences between an uncleared check & unconfirmed bitcoin transaction.

Here are just a few that come immediately to mind.  There may be additional differences as well.

• Although it is generally best not to do so, it is possible to spend unconfirmed bitcoins.  It is not typically possible to spend the money from an uncleared check.
• It is quite easy to see in advance if it is extremely likely that an unconfirmed transaction will confirm.  It is typically very difficult to determine ahead of time if a check will clear.
• It is relatively easy for the sender to remove funds from an account before a check clears, while it is quite difficult to successfully double-spend a properly formed bitcoin transaction
• The properly formed bitcoin transaction will typically (more often than half the time) confirm in less than 10 minutes and rarely (if ever) take more than 120 minutes, while the uncleared check will take days to clear

A properly formed bitcoin transaction is much more analogous to a credit card transaction that has received approval from the processing company and has a valid looking signature on the receipt than to a check in the mail.

[Assmaster2000]

We're looking for fundamental differences between an uncleared check & unconfirmed bitcoin transaction.

Here are just a few that come immediately to mind.  There may be additional differences as well.

• Although it is generally best not to do so, it is possible to spend unconfirmed bitcoins.  It is not typically possible to spend the money from an uncleared check.
• It is quite easy to see in advance if it is extremely likely that an unconfirmed transaction will confirm.  It is typically very difficult to determine ahead of time if a check will clear.
• It is relatively easy for the sender to remove funds from an account before a check clears, while it is quite difficult to successfully double-spend a properly formed bitcoin transaction
• The properly formed bitcoin transaction will typically (more often than half the time) confirm in less than 10 minutes and rarely (if ever) take more than 120 minutes, while the uncleared check will take days to clear

A properly formed bitcoin transaction is much more analogous to a credit card transaction that has received approval from the processing company and has a valid looking signature on the receipt than to a check in the mail.

>Although it is generally best not to do so, it is possible to spend unconfirmed bitcoins.
Plz give me an example, because I want to do some serious double-spending via 0-fee tx.

>properly formed bitcoin transaction will typically (more often than half the time) confirm in less than 10 minutes
Only if the hashrate is going up. If the hashrate is constant, the average is exactly 10 minutes, because math.

>10 minutes and rarely (if ever) take more than 120 minutes
Can assure you, it happens. See thread linked above.

[DannyHamilton]

>Although it is generally best not to do so, it is possible to spend unconfirmed bitcoins.
Plz give me an example, because I want to do some serious double-spending via 0-fee tx.

Sure.  As of the time that I'm posting this, you can see a transaction spending unconfirmed bitcoins here:
https://blockchain.info/tx-index/153263713

However, I suspect you'll find that getting away with double spending isn't as easy as you seem to imply it is.

>properly formed bitcoin transaction will typically (more often than half the time) confirm in less than 10 minutes
Only if the hashrate is going up. If the hashrate is constant, the average is exactly 10 minutes, because math.

Yes, the average is exactly 10 minutes (or at least VERY close), and as I said, more than half of the time it takes less than 10 minutes.  I believe the median is about 8 minutes or so, because maths.

>10 minutes and rarely (if ever) take more than 120 minutes
Can assure you, it happens. See thread linked above.

When I said "The properly formed bitcoin transaction" I hoped that the average reader on this forum would understand that included paying a reasonable transaction fee.  The thread you linked was regarding a transaction that paid no fee at all.

None of your responses seem to successfully dispute my list of differences between an uncleared check and an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction.

Your FUD doesn't impress me much.

[Assmaster2000]

None of your responses seem to successfully dispute my list of differences between an uncleared check and an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction.

Your FUD doesn't impress me much.

Orly? I assumed you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula. But you didn't. Could you link me to the definition of "properly formed bitcoin transaction" you're using? Because it seems you're suggesting that "a properly formed bitcoin transaction" is a transaction that goes through, which isn't much of a definition, being both circular and unenlightening

...also getting into some murky shit, since you're telling me that one of the most popular bitcoin wallets is creating ill-formed transactions, transactions which, being ill-formed, should never happen

Imagine going to your ATM, slipping it your card, and, after keying in some numbers, seeing "Lulz, UR monyz GONE, ill-formed transaction xD looool!!" Not only did you not get any money from your ATM, but the money you expected to get is, basically, GONE. You might get it back some day, and then again, you might not.
This really is the currency of the future.

>Sure.  As of the time that I'm posting this, you can see a transaction spending unconfirmed bitcoins here:
https://blockchain.info/tx-index/153263713

What am I looking at? And why is it still unconfirmed, an hour later?

[LukaHR]

Can we still say that bitcoin transactions are faster?
I have send some of my bitcoins to an address and about one hour has been passed but still there is not even a single confirmation.

what do you say about the transaction timing?

It takes 30 minutes to 1 hour for me, but I only use a few pages to transfer and I get gig rewards in an random way, so I have no idea how much it genuinely takes.

[DannyHamilton]

Orly?

Yep.

Could you link me to the definition of "properly formed bitcoin transaction" you're using? Because it seems you're suggesting that "a properly formed bitcoin transaction" is a transaction that goes through, which isn't much of a definition, being both circular and unenlightening

Nah.

When I say a "properly formed bitcoin transaction" I generally mean the following:

• Transaction includes a reasonable fee for it's size
• Transaction doesn't spend any unconfirmed outputs
• Sequence numbers of all inputs equal to UINT_MAX
• No competing transactions seen on the network spending any of the same inputs
• Transaction broadcast to multiple nodes

...also getting into some murky shit, since you're telling me that one of the most popular bitcoin wallets is creating ill-formed transactions

Not sure exactly which wallet you're talking about, but yes there are several "popular" wallets that have transactions which create "bad" transactions, or do a bad job of protecting their users.  Popularity is a very poor measure of quality.

Any normal app checks for shit input from a user; if I type "my dog has flees" into "withdraw amount," it will ask me to try again, a value was expected. That's basic input validation.
Now imagine going to your ATM, slipping it your card, and, after keying in some numbers, seeing "Lulz, UR monyz GONE, ill-formed transaction xD looool!!" Not only did you not get any money from your ATM, but the money you expected to get is, basically, GONE. You might get it back some day, and then again, you might not.

Businesses that provide you with that ATM interface are motivated by competition and desire to profit to provide a quality product.  If some hobbyist created an ATM that did dumb crap like that, would you use it?  No? What about if that ATM was popular, then would you use it? There were unfortunately wallets created early on by hobbyists without a significant motivation to create anything better than they needed for their own personal purposes.  Those wallets became popular before better wallets came along.  Eventually the market will sort out and the best designs will win, but until then popularity is a poor measure of quality.

What am I looking at?

A transaction that spends unconfirmed bitcoins.  I'm pretty sure I already stated that.

And why is it still unconfirmed, an hour later?

Lack of transaction fee?

[Assmaster2000]

Orly?

Yep.

Could you link me to the definition of "properly formed bitcoin transaction" you're using? Because it seems you're suggesting that "a properly formed bitcoin transaction" is a transaction that goes through, which isn't much of a definition, being both circular and unenlightening

Nah.

When I say a "properly formed bitcoin transaction" I generally mean the following:

Transaction includes a reasonable fee for it's size

Vague, ambiguous words like "reasonable" have no place in a formal definition. Also: "its.

Transaction doesn't spend any unconfirmed outputs

But you told me that those could be spent?

Sequence numbers of all inputs equal to UINT_MAX

So opt-in RBF is out? Check.

No competing transactions seen on the network spending any of the same inputs

How would my wife check for that?

Transaction broadcast to multiple nodes

Ditto.

Tell you what. I googled "properly formed bitcoin transaction," netting me ...About 0 results (0.32 seconds). Safe to say not something in common usage, so:
1. Don't coin techy sounding scientistical jargon like "properly formed bitcoin transaction" without defining it first. It might impress some bimbo at your city college, but shit don't fly here.
2. Learn what a definition is.

[DannyHamilton]

Vague, ambiguous words like "reasonable" have no place in a formal definition. Also: "its.

So you're saying that the only problem with that requirement is a typo in the word "its" and you would prefer a better word that "reasonable".  Got it.  At least we agree on that point.

But you told me that those could be spent?

Yep, they can, but if you do spend them (or receive a transaction that spent them) then you should expect a significantly increased chance that the transaction WON'T confirm in the next block.  We are talking about my statement that the "properly formed transaction will typically (more often than half the time) confirm in less than 10 minutes and rarely (if ever) take more than 120 minutes", right?

So opt-in RBF is out? Check.

Looks like we agree on that point too.

How would my wife check for that?

If she's sending the transaction, she doesn't need to.

If she's receiving the transaction, then she can either use a wallet or service that tells her, use a service that manages the risk for her, or determine for herself if she has enough of a trust relationship with the payer to accept unconfirmed transactions or needs to wait for a confirmation.

Ditto.

See above.

Tell you what. I googled "properly formed bitcoin transaction," netting me ...About 0 results (0.32 seconds). Safe to say not something in common usage

Bummer.  Give it time. Maybe in a few more years.

1. Don't coin techy sounding scientistical jargon like "properly formed bitcoin transaction" without defining it first.

Techy?  Maybe Techie.

I apologize for not gaining your approval on my word choices ahead of time. Hope you can get over it. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to seek in advance your approval of all words I choose to use in the future.  I'll just continue to use words that I feel get my thoughts across as best I can.  Perhaps I'll occasionally fail, but it's gotten me this far in life, and I doubt it will become a problem for me now.  You've made your own value judgement about the word choice, others will make their own value judgements.  Perhaps some will agree with you, perhaps some won't.  I'm not particularly concerned.

It might impress some bimbo at your city college, but shit don't fly here.

Um? Ok.

2. Learn what a definition is.

Nah.  Not interested.

[Assmaster2000]

Vague, ambiguous words like "reasonable" have no place in a formal definition. Also: "its.

So you're saying that the only problem with that requirement is a typo in the word "its" and you would prefer a better word that "reasonable".  Got it.  At least we agree on that point.

No. I'm telling you that not only is your definition junk ("reasonable" is junk, for the same reason "correct answer" is not a correct answer to a math problem -- it's unenlightening, it carries no information, it tells your teacher nothing), but you also cant's write right.

>but if you do spend them (or receive a transaction that spent them) then you should expect a significantly increased chance that the transaction WON'T confirm in the next block

So, exactly like spending a check that Anon claims he sent you, then.
You can write checks (backed by zilch) before you receive Anon's check, but, if anyone tries to cash those bouncy checks you wrote, they'll bounce. But yeah, strictly speaking, you are free to spend Anon's check as soon as he tells you it's in the mail. Just like those unconfirmed tx

>Techy?  Maybe Techie.
Nah, I'm good.

[iqlimasyadiqa]

if you want a fast bitcoin transactions use large transaction fee anyway. especially if you send bitcoin numbers are very large then it was followed a large fee anyway. on the one day I had sent bitcoin with a large amount but the fee that I give very little. guess how long? 3 days I can only confirm the transaction. so do not play play against fee. This is very influential.