Speculators have bailed, good, PLEASE start building bitcoin businesses now

[Lupus_Yonderboy]

Wait, you mean this is a zero sum game? Oh that's right, because bitcoins don't actually create wealth. They simply help enable the redistribution of wealth.

[Synaptic]

Wait, you mean this is a zero sum game? Oh that's right, because bitcoins don't actually create wealth. They simply help enable the redistribution of wealth.

Like poker

[TraderTimm]

Jesus freakin Christ... is every other thread here started by a troll? Seriously.

Yeah, that is why I called one of them out directly.

I don't mind contrary well-constructed arguments or viewpoints, but I *do* mind posts that are designed to provoke reactions. It is ridiculously easy to discern between the two. I'd support a forum sub-section called "Drama" - and have the threads shuttled over there for all the "free speech" people to hash it out, but for me, I'd rather not see it in the main discussion forum.

[Babylon]

I'm a small business owner myself (programming/design/hosting), and I considered accepting bitcoins for services.  I no longer consider it a viable option in the least.

Why?

Because for all the ephemeral philosophical jesting about decentralized money and how we're all paving the way to a grand and glorious future of Utopic, regulation free financial anarchy, the fact is it makes ZERO business sense to accept bitcoins.

It's a fools errand to accept a form of currency that can render your services a very expensive favor.

I currently charge a base rate of $162/hr. with additional compensation based on project scope. If I began accepting bitcoins and doing even a fraction of business in them (say 10%), then month to month my actual income could have such a wide variance as to make my life a living hell of watching market tickers and having to waste my time day trading to ensure I got fair compensation for my work.

As far as any real and profitable businesses are concerned, accepting bitcoin is an idiotic proposal, UNLESS the owner of that business is merely speculating on future returns.

My bet is that businesses aren't going to gamble with their profits on the feel good nature of crypto-currency's war on the evil fiats of the world...

Paypal fees aren't that bad...hell, neither are credit card fees, really.  Certainly not when compared with BTC lol.

"Paypal without the fees!"

HAHAHA...

This is why we need stability.

I don't see stability happening yet, not for quite some time in fact, but before bitcoin can really be taken seriously as a currency stability is going to need to be reached.  Or at least an easily predictable rate of change.

[AntiVigilante]

It's a fools errand to accept a form of currency that can render your services a very expensive favor.

I currently charge a base rate of $162/hr. with additional compensation based on project scope. If I began accepting bitcoins and doing even a fraction of business in them (say 10%), then month to month my actual income could have such a wide variance as to make my life a living hell of watching market tickers and having to waste my time day trading to ensure I got fair compensation for my work.

Don't price in dollars then.

This is truly hyperbolic.

I lost $80 trading in the middle of traffic.

I had $250 worth around BTC = $18. I had a buyer at $20. I had a seller at $17.5. I opened up the two trades. I sold at $20. The $17.50 one disappeared. No scam. Just took off. I bought at $23 to complete the sale. I was left with $170 worth.

Later, I gave out loans and wasn't able to make the hypothetical trades everyone here is using to support their pet theories, I'd lost from $170 worth down to $100. As well as some due to lending out to someone with a high rating that ended doing something stupid and scamming lots of people. And I actually think he'll pay me eventually.

But we're only going to include the market risk.

The difference for the first loss was $5.5 per BTC higher than $17.50. And it cost me $80 due to the missed connection. Yesterday's drop was $7.5 per BTC down from $17.5 and it cost me $70.

I lost more from it going up and trading in traffic per dollar, $80 / $5.5 = $14.4 per $1 rise, versus lending and having a business on the market, $70 / $7.50 = $9.1 per $1 drop.

I lost 50% more for it going up.

[AntiVigilante]

But in order for it to get any better those that wish to be paid in Bitcoin need to actually price things in Bitcoin, that means denominating accounting spreadsheets, valuing inventory, pricing inputs, et cetera—in Bitcoin. The calculus for your ROI looks completely different that way, and if you don't do it you will loose money.

Precisely. BTC are not a synonym for dollars. Price in BTC and stick to it. I am doing so with loans I put out.

[amincd]

I for one am creating a service around bitcoin right now I do agree that over-fixation on the price is not good, as it detracts attention from creating services that use it.

One negative side-effect from the rapid rise in its market value is that it brings out the critics, the type of people who get paranoid when any thing is increasing in value and any one is making money. They spread misconceptions like "it's a ponzi scheme!" when they don't understand the technology. I think it's important to publicly challenge and deconstruct these misconceptions as they are raised, so that as bitcoin becomes more well-known, people who come to learn about it are not dissuaded from getting involved because of these misconceptions and don't miss out on the enormous potential that bitcoin has.

[unclescrooge]

I am seriously disgusted with anyone that thought the price was just going to go up and up. I believe in Bitcoin but what I've seen in recent weeks is selfishness on a level I didn't expect. I saw the price soar from 10.00 to 30.00 within a week and regretted every dollar it gained because I knew that when I glanced at this page https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade almost no businesses had been added. Are you fucking serious? Bitcoin's STABILITY is built on enterprise, NOT popularity, forget miners, they are a CONSTANT. Why people compare miners and price, or price and difficulty is anyone's guess. Popularity is the bane of the free market and everyone jumped for it, hook, line, and sinker. The only thing that matters is economy growth, y'know business, people trading, mom and pop stores, niche markets, fuck, even newspaper sellers, if there is no adoption of Bitcoin as a trusted currency by those businesses that are willing to give it a shot. Bitcoin. Is. Dead. Speculators need to grow up. Enthusiasts need to grow up.

I think you all need to take a good hard look at yourselves and ask yourself, what does Bitcoin mean to me.

hell yes

[onesalt]

But in order for it to get any better those that wish to be paid in Bitcoin need to actually price things in Bitcoin, that means denominating accounting spreadsheets, valuing inventory, pricing inputs, et cetera—in Bitcoin. The calculus for your ROI looks completely different that way, and if you don't do it you will loose money.

Precisely. BTC are not a synonym for dollars. Price in BTC and stick to it. I am doing so with loans I put out.

Companies attempt to turn a profit, which is why they operate. If they can't reliably turn a profit in btc due to it's volatility, no one will use it.

[Babylon]

I'm a small business owner myself (programming/design/hosting), and I considered accepting bitcoins for services.  I no longer consider it a viable option in the least.

Why?

Because for all the ephemeral philosophical jesting about decentralized money and how we're all paving the way to a grand and glorious future of Utopic, regulation free financial anarchy, the fact is it makes ZERO business sense to accept bitcoins.

It's a fools errand to accept a form of currency that can render your services a very expensive favor.

I currently charge a base rate of $162/hr. with additional compensation based on project scope. If I began accepting bitcoins and doing even a fraction of business in them (say 10%), then month to month my actual income could have such a wide variance as to make my life a living hell of watching market tickers and having to waste my time day trading to ensure I got fair compensation for my work.

As far as any real and profitable businesses are concerned, accepting bitcoin is an idiotic proposal, UNLESS the owner of that business is merely speculating on future returns.

My bet is that businesses aren't going to gamble with their profits on the feel good nature of crypto-currency's war on the evil fiats of the world...

Paypal fees aren't that bad...hell, neither are credit card fees, really.  Certainly not when compared with BTC lol.

"Paypal without the fees!"

HAHAHA...

This is why we need stability.

I don't see stability happening yet, not for quite some time in fact, but before bitcoin can really be taken seriously as a currency stability is going to need to be reached.  Or at least an easily predictable rate of change.

Not going to happen.

The Bitcoin economic model virtually ensures that the exchange rate with regulated currencies will remain unstable. There will continue to be pain for the Bitcoin economy as long as as the goods and services that are paid for in Bitcoin are actually priced as a proxy for the Dollar. This pain will eventually ensure that Bitcoin operates as a seperate economy, not a parallel economy. Until people can pay for their daily needs priced in Bitcoin It will take ticker watching to make sure you are making the best advantage of your available capital. And you can actually make bank by doing that... It's called arbitrage.

But in order for it to get any better those that wish to be paid in Bitcoin need to actually price things in Bitcoin, that means denominating accounting spreadsheets, valuing inventory, pricing inputs, et cetera—in Bitcoin. The calculus for your ROI looks completely different that way, and if you don't do it you will loose money.

I wasn't talking about stability vs the dollar, or any other fiat currency.  I was talking about stability vs the price of goods in bit coins.  If a merchant has to change his prices daily that is an extra piece of work that is not necessary for other currencies.  If the merchant doesn't know if a bitcoin is going to buy more or less tomorrow than it does today then he is going to have to convert it to a more stable currency and that is another piece of work that is not needed when operating in a different currency.

[The_Duke]

I am seriously disgusted with anyone that thought the price was just going to go up and up. I believe in Bitcoin but what I've seen in recent weeks is selfishness on a level I didn't expect.

We have a word for that. It's called being naive. But it's good lesson in life for you. The human is selfish. Any construct that doesn't take advantage of that concept is doomed to fail.