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Author Topic: ETH = Game Over  (Read 40467 times)
RealBitcoin (OP)
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June 19, 2016, 08:55:18 AM
 #101


a) All blockchain software is evolving, just like bitcoin may needs to change block-size soon. Any blockchain could come up with the future option to only require most nodes to verify history for a minimum of x years, while other full 'archive nodes' get extra reward.
Evolving into what? Bitcoin wont change the blocksize because its the only variable that gives it stability.


b)Storage gets cheaper per Tb daily. 'Farmers' (/'MAID/STORJ/SIA Miners')  may soon be putting together rigs with 20 SSD cached 16Tb Harddrives

But ETH doesnt have a hardcap except Gas, so the fees would rise much faster on ETH than on bitcoin. And if they lower it, then the blockchain will grow even faster, so no technology can catch up to it later.


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c) Wreckless? Prove it.  On Github about  2200 Bitcoin Bugs were documented to be fixed and  1300 for Ethereum.  Few other crypto economy projects have 150-500 bugs fixed while most are below 150 - so is TheDAO! (only 37 yet)
Just because bugs werent detected that deosnt mean they arent there. There are most likely many more hundreds of 0 day bugs in it waiting to be discovered.


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g) Centralized, how exactly? More than Ripple?
h) They are not deciding it nor are they able to.
They are only taking their responsibility to inform the public about the options that the public has. And these are obvious options that could apply to many other Blockchains (Crypto currencies) too and at any time.
i) not even the bitcoinXT propsal killed bitcoin, did it?Wink
Dont compare it to ripple. I`m pretty sure they called to action all nodes and exchanges to tell them what to do.

Now they might not obey them ,but still its a command & control currency.

BitcoinXT had barely any legitimacy, the ETH devs obviously have a lot in ETH.




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j) It was a temporary idea during evaluating the incident.  They made sure to cancel this request within 2 hours, since it was not necessary.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oif2x/dao_attack_exchanges_please_pause_eth_and_dao/
Exchanges did not or hardly react on this.

Ok so it was temporary, i can accept that, so i will remove this point from the OP.

Still not the best course of action in my opinion, but at least it was short lived.

I understand the urgency and the heat of action, but still this was a command & control approach.



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k) There are more possible solution and mild ones. This is mainly about a TheDAO bugh - the only thing serious is that the subject of discussion also hold ~4.5% of Ethereums market capitalization = ~3 month worth of Ethereum's mining production = inflation  
(- Still  Rather tiny compared to the speed Etherum was rising in the last two years despite inflation.)
It was the trust that was broken, the trust in devs, the trust in their skills and the trust in their decentralization promises. That causes more damage than just the missing ethereum.


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June 19, 2016, 11:11:43 AM
 #102

Yes, the poorly written code allowed them to LEGALLY get the coins.  This is not a hack, just poor coding.  Eth can NOT recover from this.  Tarnished forever.

I couldn't agree more. It's a long term zero whose short term scandal and investigation - there will be an investigation - is going to hurt Altcoins in general, perhaps even hastening the ultimate demise of many.

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June 19, 2016, 12:03:27 PM
 #103

Yes, the poorly written code allowed them to LEGALLY get the coins.  This is not a hack, just poor coding.  Eth can NOT recover from this.  Tarnished forever.

I couldn't agree more. It's a long term zero whose short term scandal and investigation - there will be an investigation - is going to hurt Altcoins in general, perhaps even hastening the ultimate demise of many.


It isn't "tarnished forever" if the problem is confined to where it originated. That was the whole point of a "Turing Complete" scripting language - to isolate one contract from another and from the underlying platform itself as I've explained here and in previous posts in that thread.
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June 19, 2016, 02:04:36 PM
 #104

Published on may 18th

Ethereum Contracts Are Going To Be Candy For Hackers

http://vessenes.com/ethereum-contracts-are-going-to-be-candy-for-hackers/
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June 19, 2016, 02:29:07 PM
 #105

It isn't "tarnished forever" if the problem is confined to where it originated. That was the whole point of a "Turing Complete" scripting language - to isolate one contract from another and from the underlying platform itself as I've explained here and in previous posts in that thread.

I responded to your linked post as quoted above:

The very architecture of a smart contract blockchain makes the logic of the "Turing Complete" scripting language independent of the logic of the blockchain on which it runs. Kind of like the separation of executive a legislative powers in states. If you decide to p*ss all over that principle just to save yourself embarrassment and investors in a known risky asset from taking a haircut then you just kill it for everybody.

Incorrect! Turing-completeness is unbounded recursion. Thus it makes it impossible to encapsulate scripts from each other and from internal recursion, etc.. It is the opposite of your incorrect assumption!

You should stop spreading lies about computer science that you do not understand.

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June 19, 2016, 02:34:51 PM
 #106

Published on may 18th

Ethereum Contracts Are Going To Be Candy For Hackers

http://vessenes.com/ethereum-contracts-are-going-to-be-candy-for-hackers/


"Some popular services, ones with 100s of thousands of dollars flowing through them, are distressingly bad (as in "everyone loses all their money" bad) with no way to mitigate, by design."

This one takes the ignorance and idiocy of the sheople to yet another level ("donkeys" in this particular case).

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June 19, 2016, 04:59:47 PM
 #107

 "I am 99.999% certain this is bug free."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s

The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik.
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June 19, 2016, 05:18:27 PM
 #108

"I am 99.999% certain this is bug free."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s

The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik.

We all make mistakes. This mistake costs quite high. I hope Vitalik and other programmers will learn a good lesson.
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June 19, 2016, 05:20:26 PM
 #109

"I am 99.999% certain this is bug free."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s

The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik.

We all make mistakes. This mistake costs quite high. I hope Vitalik and other programmers will learn a good lesson.

Its not just a mistake . The whole concept is flawed and DOA! Those that understand security realize this. This is just the start of "hacks".
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June 19, 2016, 06:05:02 PM
 #110

Excellent writeup. To be honest, ETH has no chances to ever fully recover. Sure, you can expect the price to go up and down for a while, since there is a lot of people involved with deep pockets, but in the long run the thing is done for. Vitalik is acting as if he was Ben Bernanke with all that "hey guys, stop the exchanges" insanity. This is just too deep of a fuckup to recover. I just hope that everyone was able to sold their ETH on Poloniex before it got locked.

I thought the problem was DAO, not ETH. That's like blaming dollar as a currency if some big bank or investment using dollars fails. Sure, it will hurt in the short term but in the long term, why not go up again? BTC has recovered nicely from the same disasters in the past. Mt. Gox hack was 10x worse than this, no, and here wee see BTC climbing to 1000 again. One has to have balls to buy ETH now but it will probably make many people earn lots of money buying cheap ETH now.


It's ETH problem too. Who created ETH? Vitalik Buterin. Who panicked and start acting like a central banker trying to stop all trade of ETH to stop people from panic selling ? Vitalik Buterin. Therefore, this sets an ugly precedent and makes the creator of ETH someone that you can't trust.
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June 19, 2016, 06:06:27 PM
 #111

It's ETH problem too. Who created ETH? Vitalik Buterin. Who panicked and start acting like a central banker trying to stop all trade of ETH to stop people from panic selling ? Vitalik Buterin. Therefore, this sets an ugly precedent and makes the creator of ETH someone that you can't trust.

Acting as a judge without any legal protection for being an arbitrator!

Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864

Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!

The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.
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June 19, 2016, 06:11:33 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2016, 06:26:56 PM by thejaytiesto
 #112

It's ETH problem too. Who created ETH? Vitalik Buterin. Who panicked and start acting like a central banker trying to stop all trade of ETH to stop people from panic selling ? Vitalik Buterin. Therefore, this sets an ugly precedent and makes the creator of ETH someone that you can't trust.

Acting as a judge without any legal protection for being an arbitrator!

Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864

Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!

The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.

Where did you get that video? It shows as hidden so I didn't see it in andreas's youtube channel.
Interesting, will look at it while i walk in the treadmill later, its two fucking hours long tho, it will take 2 days.

Anyway, Vitalik suffers from delusions of grandeur, this is clear by the fact that he wanted to work under turing complete system even tho he was advised that it was a mistake by a lot of people. It's better to admit limitations and work around those limitations trying to get a robust system, that is why everyone should be all in on BTC since its the best we have on crypto thus far, everything else is highly experimental.
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June 19, 2016, 06:12:06 PM
 #113

Only refering to current successfull hack on DAO network is enough for eth price to fall half and imagine what will be market sentiment after they see second successfull hack made today https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/4ot3vi/warning_another_successful_attack_recursive_split/

This could drop price of ethereum to ground, even softfork seems not be enough to stop all of this hacked eth becoming tradable. Shocked

 
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June 19, 2016, 06:44:53 PM
 #114

This stuttering "genius" is your leader? Vitalik was clearly flustered by the question. Must listen to this! And look at the body language of Gavin Wood and the other guy on the podium.

"I am 99.999% certain this is bug free."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s

The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik.
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June 19, 2016, 07:08:11 PM
 #115

ETH is down and maybe out. But let's stop kidding ourselves. We all know all that these cryptocurrencies are just a bunch of cryptolottery tickets.  All that fancy schmancy coding just to operate a lottery.

There are still another 500+ cryptocurrencies left. Anybody who loses money in these lotteries had it coming. Gamblers need to learn that the odds favor the house, not the gambler. And if you don't know who the house is, it's probably not you.
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June 19, 2016, 07:43:50 PM
 #116

ETH is down and maybe out. But let's stop kidding ourselves. We all know all that these cryptocurrencies are just a bunch of cryptolottery tickets.  All that fancy schmancy coding just to operate a lottery.

There are still another 500+ cryptocurrencies left. Anybody who loses money in these lotteries had it coming. Gamblers need to learn that the odds favor the house, not the gambler. And if you don't know who the house is, it's probably not you.

Bitcoin has operated 7 years almost flawlessly, with really no big systemic risk on it.

Most fiat currencies dont last more than 15 years, so not all cryptos are "lottery"...

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June 19, 2016, 08:05:43 PM
 #117

The people who bought bitcoin at $800, or $900, or $1,000 might beg to differ that bitcoin is not risky. So would the people who experienced bitcoin drop from $1,000 in 2014 to $200 in 2015. Whether or not that volatility is a "systemic risk," some people lose plenty in the bitcoin lottery.
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June 19, 2016, 08:21:36 PM
 #118

The people who bought bitcoin at $800, or $900, or $1,000 might beg to differ that bitcoin is not risky. So would the people who experienced bitcoin drop from $1,000 in 2014 to $200 in 2015. Whether or not that volatility is a "systemic risk," some people lose plenty in the bitcoin lottery.

I didnt said its not risky, i said that it probably doesnt have big impending systemic risk in it.

Price volatility =/= shitty code that could crash the price to 0.

It's not "bitcoin lottery", it's called a market.

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June 19, 2016, 08:40:43 PM
 #119

I think Ethereum recover and take his position again.
Yes, I will agree that the latest news was hit much interest in the project. Let's see what will be on.

The soft fork is set to confiscate any funds running an instance of the DAO code, not just TheDAO. The risk of asset forfeiture is exactly why I got into crypto.

No...wait...

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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June 19, 2016, 08:49:14 PM
 #120

There was a discussion of implementing the soft fork, but not the hard fork. That is would reduce the available Ethereum supply.
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