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Author Topic: ETH = Game Over  (Read 40435 times)
JayJuanGee
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September 02, 2016, 02:59:04 PM
 #461

I'm giving ETH the advantage of doubt now. I haven't invested new money into it for a while, but in fact I'm still making good enough profit for me with trading the ETH that I already have. I wouldn't base a long-term plan on it, but I wouldn't just sell all my ETH at once either.

Your life is pretty good if you use the ETH as one place to invest (trading), and I think that ETH will not be game over. Because the ETH has its own uniqueness and they also have a foundation strong enough to survive in the market altcoin. So if you still doubt, then you can use the ETH for short term


Yeah, let's talk about ETH as if it were living in a vacuum, and this little diluting coin, called ETC, did not exist.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The ETC is existing at the moment. But it might not exist after the DAO hacker start dumping the ETC in the nar future.

The hacker does not like the Etheruem concept any way. So he will dump the ETC in many ways to make good profit out of it without problem.


Those dumping theories are retarded, especially if you are assuming that the "hacker"may want to make money.  Accordingly, if there are any dumps those would likely be incremental in order to preserve the value somewhat, while dumping.

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
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September 04, 2016, 07:10:15 AM
 #462

The interesting thing is that both chains are being able to remain with some stability in the market.
But I'm not sure if both can succeed in the long term.

You are right my friend. Both coons are now stable in the market and I think they both have a future and its not yet game over for ETH.
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September 04, 2016, 09:48:22 AM
 #463

I'm giving ETH the advantage of doubt now. I haven't invested new money into it for a while, but in fact I'm still making good enough profit for me with trading the ETH that I already have. I wouldn't base a long-term plan on it, but I wouldn't just sell all my ETH at once either.

Your life is pretty good if you use the ETH as one place to invest (trading), and I think that ETH will not be game over. Because the ETH has its own uniqueness and they also have a foundation strong enough to survive in the market altcoin. So if you still doubt, then you can use the ETH for short term


Yeah, let's talk about ETH as if it were living in a vacuum, and this little diluting coin, called ETC, did not exist.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

That is an interesting idea thinking of ETC of diluting ETH and making the price go down. There is some truth in that comment only because ETH can be split and the user can receive an equivalent amount of ETC. But what would happen if they fix it and let the two chains diverge. Would you still view ETC as a dilution of ETH?

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Cacaparg
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September 09, 2016, 06:51:53 AM
 #464

The interesting thing is that both chains are being able to remain with some stability in the market.
But I'm not sure if both can succeed in the long term.

You are right my friend. Both coons are now stable in the market and I think they both have a future and its not yet game over for ETH.

Those two coins could coexist for long time to come. If the ETC gets good developers and big company support, it could also survive.
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September 09, 2016, 03:23:00 PM
 #465

I'm giving ETH the advantage of doubt now. I haven't invested new money into it for a while, but in fact I'm still making good enough profit for me with trading the ETH that I already have. I wouldn't base a long-term plan on it, but I wouldn't just sell all my ETH at once either.

Your life is pretty good if you use the ETH as one place to invest (trading), and I think that ETH will not be game over. Because the ETH has its own uniqueness and they also have a foundation strong enough to survive in the market altcoin. So if you still doubt, then you can use the ETH for short term


Yeah, let's talk about ETH as if it were living in a vacuum, and this little diluting coin, called ETC, did not exist.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

That is an interesting idea thinking of ETC of diluting ETH and making the price go down. There is some truth in that comment only because ETH can be split and the user can receive an equivalent amount of ETC. But what would happen if they fix it and let the two chains diverge. Would you still view ETC as a dilution of ETH?



I doubt that I understand the dynamics well enough to speculate about how able each chain is to become unique from the other.  I do consider both coins to be kind of shit coins; however, ETC seems to be more valuable in terms of attempting to get away from centralized and manipulated systems, so in the longer term, I see the prices of the two approaching parity (even if they attempt to distinguish from each other), and maybe even ETC could surpass the value of ETH - yet I don't have any real understanding whether ETC would go up before ETH comes down or if both of them go down... yet I still have the sense that they are going to always remain somewhat connected because they are almost the same thing with ETC merely attempting to remain a decentralized version of ETH.

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
mining1
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September 09, 2016, 08:36:44 PM
 #466

You must be either stupid or too invested into failed ETC. There are literally hundreds of projects being build on ethereum, and alot of positive news lately. Go read reddit. Even the giant thomson reuters supports ethereum for a while now.
It's really hard to argue what i just said when giants like apple (asked to remove ETC from jaxx), microsoft, thomson reuters, santander bank as sponsor, openly support ethereum. When thomson reuters put a huge billboard panel on their building you know something is really moving. Some of the shitloads of positive news.
https://twitter.com/CryptoCompare/status/773526471293960192
https://twitter.com/GeorgeAHallam/status/774330620973617154
https://news.bitcoin.com/visa-test-blockchain-payments/
http://themerkle.com/the-pitts-family-circus-is-the-first-ever-film-crowdfunded-with-ethereum/
These are just examples, there are many more. So yeah, keep dreaming.
JayJuanGee
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September 10, 2016, 01:11:13 AM
 #467

You must be either stupid or too invested into failed ETC. There are literally hundreds of projects being build on ethereum, and alot of positive news lately. Go read reddit. Even the giant thomson reuters supports ethereum for a while now.
It's really hard to argue what i just said when giants like apple (asked to remove ETC from jaxx), microsoft, thomson reuters, santander bank as sponsor, openly support ethereum. When thomson reuters put a huge billboard panel on their building you know something is really moving. Some of the shitloads of positive news.
https://twitter.com/CryptoCompare/status/773526471293960192
https://twitter.com/GeorgeAHallam/status/774330620973617154
https://news.bitcoin.com/visa-test-blockchain-payments/
http://themerkle.com/the-pitts-family-circus-is-the-first-ever-film-crowdfunded-with-ethereum/
These are just examples, there are many more. So yeah, keep dreaming.


You are coming off as a kind of ETH pumper, and you are the one who seems to be dreaming when you seem to be confusing various pumping attempts with some kind of utility that ETH may be able to provide that bitcoin cannot provide (or at least may be riding on the tails of the security of bitcoin).

I was asserting my assessment of the situation, and yeah, likely I am not following all the ETH pumping and endorsements as closely as you seem to be. 

Regarding my supposed over investment in ETC.  I did buy some ETC soon after the fork, and I never did buy any ETH - yet nonetheless, the quantity of my ETC investment remains at less than 1% of my whole crypto holdings and the other 99% is in BTC or otherwise related to BTC.  I doubt that my ETC investment has much of any influence on my comments about ETH, but you are correct with any implication that I am invested in BTC and not in ETH.  

Based on my earlier comment, did you want to suggest that I may be overinvested in BTC?  Seems like a whole other irrelevant claim, but you can make it if you like.  On the other hand, when folks begin to go into full scale ETH advocacy, I begin to believe that they likely have a considerable investment into ETH and are likely drinking quite a bit of the ETH pump koolaide... nonetheless, hopefully in the coming years, we will see how some of this is going to play out, and in a few years, we will likely see some changes in the market caps of these various competing and complementary crypto technologies.


1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
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September 10, 2016, 08:03:17 AM
 #468

You must be either stupid or too invested into failed ETC. There are literally hundreds of projects being build on ethereum, and alot of positive news lately. Go read reddit. Even the giant thomson reuters supports ethereum for a while now.
It's really hard to argue what i just said when giants like apple (asked to remove ETC from jaxx), microsoft, thomson reuters, santander bank as sponsor, openly support ethereum. When thomson reuters put a huge billboard panel on their building you know something is really moving. Some of the shitloads of positive news.
https://twitter.com/CryptoCompare/status/773526471293960192
https://twitter.com/GeorgeAHallam/status/774330620973617154
https://news.bitcoin.com/visa-test-blockchain-payments/
http://themerkle.com/the-pitts-family-circus-is-the-first-ever-film-crowdfunded-with-ethereum/
These are just examples, there are many more. So yeah, keep dreaming.


The Ethereum Foundation and the Vitalk has a lot of ETC. There is no news that they sell the ETC. Do you think they are confident in ETC?
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September 10, 2016, 12:03:08 PM
 #469

I dont think they care too much about what happens to ETC. It's obvious some people especially whales are manipulating it to gain some profit, a fact proven by the numerous pumps ETC had, while, in the same time, it was much below expanse or any ETH clone there is as far as development goes or smart contract capability, since there are no developers, no leadership, nothing. All they chew and repeat is "immutability" while supporting exploiters/thefts. I don't know if ETH foundation will sell nor i do care, it's theirs to do what they please with  / about it.
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September 10, 2016, 12:15:04 PM
 #470

You must be either stupid or too invested into failed ETC. There are literally hundreds of projects being build on ethereum, and alot of positive news lately. Go read reddit. Even the giant thomson reuters supports ethereum for a while now.
It's really hard to argue what i just said when giants like apple (asked to remove ETC from jaxx), microsoft, thomson reuters, santander bank as sponsor, openly support ethereum. When thomson reuters put a huge billboard panel on their building you know something is really moving. Some of the shitloads of positive news.

For sure then, ethereum is not going to be a tool that helps putting an end to bank, corporate and state power, but will rather be a toy in their hands.  As such, as crypto, it failed, and became yet another financial toy in the hands of the powerful.  I suppose they must like the "stopping the unstoppable" aspect of ETH.  In other words, ETH is corporate crypto.  A kind of oxymoron.
Now, it is waiting for an exploit in such a big corporate ethereum application :-)
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September 10, 2016, 02:39:44 PM
 #471

It is as much of a toy in hands of corporations as every other open source decentralized cryptocurrency. Difference is, it is the most developed and mature blockchain for smart contracts. If you think having giants interested in your decentralized blockchain is a bad thing, then i'm glad people like you exist. Weak minded people have to lose for others benefit, not everyone can be a victor.
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September 10, 2016, 07:20:29 PM
 #472

I dont think they care too much about what happens to ETC. It's obvious some people especially whales are manipulating it to gain some profit, a fact proven by the numerous pumps ETC had, while, in the same time, it was much below expanse or any ETH clone there is as far as development goes or smart contract capability, since there are no developers, no leadership, nothing. All they chew and repeat is "immutability" while supporting exploiters/thefts. I don't know if ETH foundation will sell nor i do care, it's theirs to do what they please with  / about it.


You would be more believable mining1, if you did not appear to be spinning so much.. .and talking in absolutes. 

You seem to be contradicting yourself on an ongoing basis in your attempts to spin ETH as preferable to to ETC and to denigrate the substance behind the onboarding of folks into ETC. 

Of course, there are pumps, dumps and manipulations on both ends, which is not difficult to achieve in either market with such low marketcaps and also even lower liquidation and abilities to manipulate the price at various liquidation price setting points.

This whole dynamic of the ETH decision to hardfork, and ETC community's decision to take advantage of such stupid-ass decision of ETH to have thought that they could just quickly hardfork without really thinking through their rashness, will take a while to iron out.  Very quite likely that both ETH and ETC are going to be pumped and dumped for a couple more years, at least in order to attempt to figure out if their is some kind of resolution.. unless there is some kind of compromise that can be reached... such as ETH reversing the hardfork, which seems to have its own complications, at this point.

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
JayJuanGee
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September 10, 2016, 07:28:45 PM
 #473

It is as much of a toy in hands of corporations as every other open source decentralized cryptocurrency. Difference is, it is the most developed and mature blockchain for smart contracts. If you think having giants interested in your decentralized blockchain is a bad thing, then i'm glad people like you exist. Weak minded people have to lose for others benefit, not everyone can be a victor.

The above serves as more spinning of mining1.

Can you snap out of your attempt to suggest that all cryptos are equivalent and that ETH is the best of the alt cryptos?  Probably not.  You seem to be so intent on spinning the supposed success model of ETH that you are blinded by the dynamics of the big money involvement in it, to the extent that it exists and is hyped (used as marketing) by the ETH community.

Surely there is some decent developments going on in ETH, but in the end most of what is going on ETH can be absorbed into the backbone of BTC as a sidechain or some other variations, such as rootstock.  The extent to which big money is investing in ETH is likely overhyped, and likely they are going to have a lot of skepticism regarding how much to continue to invest into it when it is remains mutable, contradictory and more manipulated by some rather than others. 

Good luck with all that centralization and attempts at spinning it as being somehow equal to BTC or some kind of meaningful competitor to BTC.

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
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September 10, 2016, 08:30:06 PM
 #474

It is as much of a toy in hands of corporations as every other open source decentralized cryptocurrency. Difference is, it is the most developed and mature blockchain for smart contracts. If you think having giants interested in your decentralized blockchain is a bad thing, then i'm glad people like you exist. Weak minded people have to lose for others benefit, not everyone can be a victor.

I'm interested in crypto essentially only for one thing: anarchism: to take back the power that states have over people, and give it back to the people, as a function of their wealth, and not as a function of their political influence.  Smart contracts are very important in this endeavour, but after the DAO debacle, I understood the fundamental failure of ethereum: Turing completeness.  
The fact that ETH is even not immutable any more is even worse: how are you ever going to be able to implement distributed warfare through smart contracts if the chain is not immutable any more ?  This is probably just a financial toy in the hands of financial gamblers, and it is not a genuine crypto weapon.  It has little interest, apart to make money from ripping off others in a zero sum game, but it will not be disruptive, like the French revolution was.  Not very interesting.  I don't think distributed warfare is possible on ETH.  Think of the "London has fallen" movie, but organized with a smart contract, and not a single point of failure of the wealthy leader.  I think ETH doesn't have the muscle to handle this kind of stuff.  But I'm dreaming here.  This is still far away.

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September 10, 2016, 10:12:30 PM
 #475

Being bad because of turing complete is bullshit. ETH is turing complete, but smart contracts dont have to, so that argument is dead from the start. Immutability ? Are you that naive ? Any blockchain can hardfork, eth is not less or more immutable than any other blockchain and no project can guarantee that wont happen. Any blockchain can be hardforked so if you dont agree with that, dont join blockchain scene / dont invest. And a one case scenario doesnt make it rule, people only agreed with it because it didnt really rollback anything besides the dao, it was a special case, dao was LOCKED. If hacker could withdraw it immediately and sell or what not, hf wouldnt have been an option anymore. You are very naive and ill informed.
Also, centralized blockchains are more at risk of being hard forked, like bitcoin, 3 people can decide that, and it will be done, if they wanted to. Eth is the most decentralized project out there.
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September 11, 2016, 12:43:56 AM
 #476




Mining1... you are full of shit and contradictions that I am questioning whether to respond to you globally or to pick apart your various points of bullshit.

I guess I should pick it apart a little bit, otherwise possibly you and/or other readers may conclude that my comments are too general.



Being bad because of turing complete is bullshit. ETH is turing complete, but smart contracts dont have to, so that argument is dead from the start.

Most likely the essence of the earlier argument by dinofelis has to do with the failure of the ETH overall and the recognition that we are not quite ready for Turing completeness - especially the DAO and ETH seemed to be an attempt to lead us down that path, and we are just not ready, yet.  Likely, the better conclusion is that for quite some time to come, we are going to need various kinds of human intervention, but whatever the fuck combination of human intervention and non-intervention that ETH and the DAO came up with was either before its time or otherwise all fucked up - but what would you expect from scheming pump and dump contradictions? 

Sure, some day there could be a role for turing completeness and smart contracts, yet whatever evolved through ETH seemed to be much more hype and marketing rather than real attempts at real world applications - just like your attempts to characterize criticisms as bullshit and dead from the start, when there is some bases for the criticisms.








Immutability ? Are you that naive ?

You seem to be the one that is naive in your attempt to belittle other folks when you in fact seem to be missing some of the overall points.

Yes, there was considerable problems with the evolution of ETH based on recent mutability applications.  ETH carried out hardforks more than once and engaged in other manipulations, but this last one kind of seemed to have bit them in the ass (likely more than expected). 

I don't know whether ETH had ever intended to be immutable, yet the recent success of ETC to sustain itself as an ETH rebellion demonstrates (beyond the pump and dump aspect) that a considerable following in the Ethereum community were displeasured by the way that ETH had gone about its most recent hardfork and even the justification for that decision to hardfork and the way that they carried it out.


Any blockchain can hardfork, eth is not less or more immutable than any other blockchain and no project can guarantee that wont happen.

Here you go again, trying to minimize Ethereum's decision to hardfork by suggesting false equivalencies and suggesting that anyone can hardfork at any time.  Sure, in the end, there is some truth to your stupid ass assertion that any chain can hardfork, but you are losing quite a bit of nuance when you try to suggest that anyone can hardfork at any time... and failing to take into account exactly how ETH decided to hardfork and under what circumstances and what circumstances would cause another chain to hardfork. 

News ALERT... not all coins are created equal and not all hardforks are created equal.. and likely bitcoin has learned some from ETH about the dangers of hardforking and are even more reluctant than they were earlier regarding going down a hardfork path - especially a controversial hardfork... on the other hand, if a hardfork is clearly non-controversial, then there is likely more reason to go down such path (which was not the case with ETH's hardfork... ETH's hardfork was controversial - and maybe not realized by some folks until after witnessing how much support ETC received subsequently to the hardfork).




Any blockchain can be hardforked so if you dont agree with that, dont join blockchain scene / dont invest.

I think that I already addressed this point.. even though any blockchain can hardfork, not all blockchains are equal, and not all blockchains will enter into controversial hardforks without some kind of preparation for repercussions.


 And a one case scenario doesnt make it rule, people only agreed with it because it didnt really rollback anything besides the dao, it was a special case, dao was LOCKED. If hacker could withdraw it immediately and sell or what not, hf wouldnt have been an option anymore.

Yes, you are trying to justify particulars of the hardfork when in essence, the hardfork decision was rash, unjustified and likely more controversial than anticipated.


You are very naive and ill informed.

Name calling is not helpful, even when you seem to be the one that is attempting to avoid engaging with substance by throwing out these kinds of remarks and your actual remarks seem to show that you are living in a bit of a fantasy world that is filled with selective choosing of facts... and spin.


Also, centralized blockchains are more at risk of being hard forked, like bitcoin, 3 people can decide that, and it will be done, if they wanted to.

O.k.. you seem to be engaging in more characterizations here, rather than reality.

Ethereum is centralized and bitcoin is not.

A large point of bitcoin's proof of work adds up to decentralized immutability.. and that is largely what gives bitcoin value as being paradigm shifting like no other coin.. including Ethereum.. .

Ethereum has demonstrated its centralization with recent actions including the recent hardfork.  Bitcoin has been having a battle over this for nearly a year, and in essence bitcoin has not been easy to hardfork and there remains considerable resistance to the hard forking of bitcoin.  Ethereum's recent experience lends additional factual evidence and logic concerning why bitcoin should not go down any kind of controversial hardfork way... and your attempts to suggest that bitcoin is some how similar or equal to ethereum seem to be based in fantasy world thinking rather than accounting for actual facts and actual recent history concerning both chains.



Eth is the most decentralized project out there.

This is one of the stupidest comments that you could make.  Your mere assertion of such fact does not make it true.

Ethereum has recently been hardfork in a controversial way over a controversial and insubstantial reason, which demonstrates its lack of decentralization.  Bitcoin on the other hand has the most powerful computing system dedicated to proof of work, which allows for decentralization and immutability.... Ethereum is no where near bitcoin's level, so you are talking nonsense in your assertion about Ethereum's supposed "most decentralized" standing.

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
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September 11, 2016, 04:17:24 AM
 #477

JJG already explained things well, but I'm going to add a few things, so that maybe you start to understand.

Being bad because of turing complete is bullshit. ETH is turing complete, but smart contracts dont have to, so that argument is dead from the start.

It would indeed even be worse if smart contracts were themselves Turing-complete state machines.  But this is not what I'm alluding to.  In a Turing-complete language, you cannot *automatically and systematically* test a random given piece of code on ALL OF ITS STATES because that set is potentially infinite.
In other words, if I give you a random piece of byte code (which is an actual contract you're wondering if you should engage with it or not), there's no systematic way to obtain the full state tree from it with a tool.  Mind you that you have to use the *byte code* and not the Solidity source code from which it is supposed to be compiled, because in the end it is the byte code that will be running, and all subtleties of side effects of the compilation are too difficult to take into account.  A given contract doesn't even have to have Solidity source code: you can always set up the byte code independently.
There's no possibility to obtain *automatically and with certainty* the full state tree of a contract.

And the whole art of lawyers looking at business contracts is to explore the state tree: ALL possible states and outcomes a contract can have.   THE VERY PRINCIPLE of an honest contract is that the signing parties are aware of ALL the possible states and outcomes of a contract.

This is entirely different for software in general.  Software in general (for instance, scientific software) is often used to obtain outcomes *people didn't know in advance*.  Here, Turing-completeness IS a good thing.

But NOT in contracts.  In as much as a contract is supposed to be honest, ALL ITS STATES must be obviously understood and known to the signing parties.  And that is exactly what Turing complete languages don't allow you to obtain with certainty on a random piece of contract byte code.  This is also why there is this stupid gas limit of which all the exploits are not yet starting to occur and for which one can design very, very subtle exploits.

Now, of course you CAN limit yourself to a testable SUBSET of byte code, but that misses the point that you cannot test "a random contract given to you" ; that the nodes cannot do that test, and hence have to apply a gas limit of which nobody knows exactly what leaves this cuts off the state tree/graph of the contract.

On non-turing complete contract systems, you don't need any gas limit, because every node can analyse the contract, and find out how big the state tree is, and what is its longest path. 

Cutting away "long paths" with a gas limit can introduce also a lot of exploits.  For instance, you might set up a contract such that redeeming ether is only possible for certain addresses, because the calculation is depending on the address and for most addresses, this calculation is too long and will always be cut off by the gas limit ; or you could be more subtle, and have certain contract instructions to be impossible by gas limit if they come from certain addresses.  This could even be induced after the contract is running, by giving instructions that can only come from one address, obfuscated by gas limit.

The gas limit is necessary because of Turing completeness, and the fact that a node cannot analyse the tree of just any random contract.

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Immutability ? Are you that naive ? Any blockchain can hardfork, eth is not less or more immutable than any other blockchain and no project can guarantee that wont happen.

Don't confuse a technical hardfork and breaking immutability.  Even if monero is hardforking over introducing confidential transactions, this is not breaking immutability as compared to the INTEND of the white paper.  Bitcoin never broke immutability, but hardforked several times - all this time, the intend of the white paper has been preserved, and all of the history has been preserved.
The only time that one could naively think that this didn't happen, was when a BUG in the node software didn't follow the white paper intend, and allowed for *non valid blocks by intend* to be validated erroneously.  When the bug was repaired, the white paper intend was restored, and of course a whole lot of blocks turned out not to be valid: but the point is, they NEVER were valid according to the intend of the white paper.  So this was not a break of immutability.

Mind you that node software is NOT a smart contract, but normal software, that implements INTEND.  There's nothing wrong with changing that software, as long as one sticks to intend, and as long as one preserves the past in as much as that past was in agreement with the intend of the protocol.

The whole idea of the block chain technology is that the antagonism between the players, their diversity and number is so big, that only consensus can be found over the original white paper intend, and the real history according to that original protocol (as intend).

But you are perfectly right that this can fail.  There's no guarantee that this immutability will remain.  However, in that case, the block chain failed.   It is no more or no less than a 51% attack.  People can decide to continue to use the failed chain.  This is my big surprise with ETH: it is a failed chain, that has been 51% attacked, but continues to live on.


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Any blockchain can be hardforked so if you dont agree with that, dont join blockchain scene / dont invest.

I don't call gambling on block chain tokens "investing".  It is gambling, nothing more and nothing less.  Investing means helping to set up production capital with economic growth as its consequence and source of reward.  Buying bitcoin and hodling, or gambling on altcoins, at no point, helps buying capital goods or services: it only pumps money from greater to lesser fools.
If you're in the gambling business, actually you don't mind in any case what happens, because you're betting on a random generator.  If you're in the crypto token gambling business, there doesn't even need to exist any block chain: just tokens on exchanges: IOU on websites.

You are right that the danger of a block chain failing exists.  What is amazing, is that the tokens of failed chains continue to be traded.  That is, to me, like if one were still trading Apple shares the months after Apple was out of business.  But it is not impossible.  After all, trading only needs belief.

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And a one case scenario doesnt make it rule, people only agreed with it because it didnt really rollback anything besides the dao, it was a special case, dao was LOCKED. If hacker could withdraw it immediately and sell or what not, hf wouldnt have been an option anymore. You are very naive and ill informed.

I know that.  But it created a huge moral hazard: first of all, it didn't punish the DAO gamblers as it should have, for having signed up to a smart contract that wasn't what they naively thought it was.  So it has allowed the DAO gamblers to profit from the buzz over smart contracts, without confronting them with the actual way smart contracts work (namely, through exploits).  It has failed to make people see what it *really* means: "unstoppable code" because one stopped it.  So these gamblers, that had invested in a VERY BAD IDEA, have been rewarded with not losing their funds as it should have been.  And the guy known as the DAO hacker has been ripped off from his true use of the smart contract.

Because a smart contract is just a piece of byte code, and nothing more.  Advertising any *intend* of a smart contract is scamming people.  Most smart contracts do that: they say that this contract is doing this or that.  That's scamming people.  The ONLY thing one should tell you about a smart contract, is its byte code - like the ONLY thing that you (or your lawyer) should read is the actual contract you sign, and not any "explanatory but not engaging documentation" that comes with it.  The thing you put your signature on, is the final arbiter.  With a smart contract, it is the byte code.  That is why the DAO hacker wasn't a thief, or a cracker: he just read the byte code, and saw the state that looked very advantageous to him (and to every participant that would have read the byte code, and nothing but the byte code).

And this is why an analysis of the byte code, and nothing but the byte code, is important, to derive the full state tree.  And that is why Turing complete byte code language makes this impossible. 

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Also, centralized blockchains are more at risk of being hard forked, like bitcoin, 3 people can decide that, and it will be done, if they wanted to. Eth is the most decentralized project out there.

I wonder if those 3 people decide to bring out a new core that strips Satoshi of his holdings, by blocking any transaction of the first 50 000 blocks UTXO, whether that would be adopted.

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September 11, 2016, 04:54:00 AM
 #478

I would like to insist on the fact that ONLY the byte code is the contract - which is why it is so important to be able to *deduce intend from byte code* and not the other way around - and this needs automatic analysis of the state tree of the byte code, and this needs a non-Turing-complete byte code language.

This is also why I consider the DAO hacker not a thief, and why I consider that the real scammers are the Slock it people (even though they may even have been scammers without realizing it).   This is because the concept of *smart contract* is new, and the ETH fork has hindered people in helping them understand this new and strange beast. 

Consider the following: an ethereum lottery.  It is very simple: during the week, people "buy tickets" of the contract, by sending a fixed sum of ethereum (the price of the ticket) to the contract.   Saturday, at noon, the contract "draws randomly" one of the participants, who gets all the ethereum, except for 1% of the pot, which goes to the dev (a fixed address in the contract).

Now suppose I analyse the code, and see that the "random generator" is in fact a thing that calculates the numerical value of the last few bytes of a hash of every participating address, and picks the one that is closest to a prime number.  In case of equality, it picks the one closest to the biggest prime number.  In the case of still equality, it goes to the earliest participant signing up.

Once I understand this, I generate myself a lot of addresses, until I find one that gives a hash of which the tail's numerical value is exactly equal to the biggest prime number that can occur in the finite set the contract considers.  I play with that address, immediately after the start of a new week, and of course, each time, I win.  Nobody knows, because each week, I generate a new address with the same bytes at the end.  That takes me some hashing power, but not so very much.  It can take a long time before people realize.  They see each week a winner, with a different address. 

Am I a cheater ?  Am I a thief ?  Or just someone who read the contract and understood how to use it profitably ?

The REAL scam comes from the announcement of the contract, which tells people that there is a RANDOM drawing amongst participants.  People *imagine* a different contract, than the one they are signing up to.  But this blah-blah over intend of the contract is not what people SIGN UP TO.  They only sign up to byte code.

This is why ONLY the byte code should be read by signers.  And this is why it should be analysable automatically.  And this is why there shouldn't be any "explanation of intend" on any web site concerning any smart contract.  Only the byte code should be there, to be read/analysed by whoever is interested in signing it.

If you find that strange/ridiculous/unattractive, then you start seeing what smart contracts really are.
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September 11, 2016, 07:58:56 AM
 #479

I would like to insist on the fact that ONLY the byte code is the contract - which is why it is so important to be able to *deduce intend from byte code* and not the other way around - and this needs automatic analysis of the state tree of the byte code, and this needs a non-Turing-complete byte code language.

This is also why I consider the DAO hacker not a thief, and why I consider that the real scammers are the Slock it people (even though they may even have been scammers without realizing it).   This is because the concept of *smart contract* is new, and the ETH fork has hindered people in helping them understand this new and strange beast. 

I think the intent of the contract is also important. The contract has to be fair to both parties. If the intent is not to lose the money obviously, then the bad code might not stand.

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September 11, 2016, 01:28:03 PM
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I think the intent of the contract is also important. The contract has to be fair to both parties. If the intent is not to lose the money obviously, then the bad code might not stand.

Then you need human judgement ; only a human can understand "intend".  And then you consider that smart contracts (the contracts where software is the final arbiter) have no reason to exist. 

Considering 'fair', no, a contract doesn't have to be 'fair'.  A contract must be CLEAR, that is, the people signing up to a contract must understand perfectly what they are signing up to.  There is no need for a contract to be fair, because the user is FREE to sign or not.  Fairness is a concept when coercion is at work.  If there is no coercion, fairness is a meaningless concept, because your freedom allows you 1) to propose just any deal 2) to accept just any deal 3) to refuse just any deal.
But the terms of the deal have to be clear.  With a smart contract on ethereum, those terms are ONLY determined by the byte code.  Up to you if you agree to those terms or not.  If you agree to them, it is your responsibility to understand them *OR* to bet on the trust you can have in someone explaining you what they are (according to them).

If I propose to you a contract where we put money in a pot, and then we draw a winner, who will take all the money, and in the fine print it is stated that I'm entitled to decide how the drawing is done, if you sign up, you shouldn't complain that I can now draw each time my own name as a winner.  It was in the contract.  If you didn't "read the fine print" then that's your problem.

But in order to avoid all this simple scamming, it should be possible to analyse a contract on all its outcomes.  Once that is possible, this kind of easy scamming is not possible any more, or only with very, very stupid people deserving no better (like the DAO holders).  If this is not possible, you are in for a rough ride.  Like the DAO holders.
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