XEM's 'Proof of Importance' is Pagerank Fused With Proof-of-Stake

[needmoney90]

> Public pagerank algorithm

> Totally ungameable

http://cointelegraph.com/news/proof-of-importance-nem-is-going-to-add-reputations-to-the-blockchain

Makoto continues by saying:

“This algorithm gives a pretty good approximation for the graph-theoretic importance of a node in the transaction graph.”

>“This algorithm gives a pretty good approximation for the graph-theoretic importance of a node in the transaction graph.”

> pretty good approximation for the graph-theoretic importance of a node

> pretty good approximation

Thats because its pagerank. And theres a reason that pagerank was closed source and constantly modified to keep up with people trying to game it, before it was eventually deprecated.

Nice job fleecing people with zero tech education. I guarantee someone bought up the majority of the float at or below 18 satoshi apiece, and the only reason the price is so high is because of the locked up majority. GG XEM, stay classy. Enjoy your pump, suckers.


Discuss.

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[operative11]

I don't understand the technical characteristics of this coin at all, but there's something murky about their website and how quickly it wants to "get you started" after the brief "explanation" (consisting of a whole new set of bulleted buzzwords) and there's something about the whole thing that runs counter to idea of a "good investment/store of value"...

[nzminer]

Not really a surprise that the trolls are at it again now that the price has risen.

I highly doubt Makoto would be silly enough to use something like pagerank that has the potential for cheating if the code was open source.

the POI algorithm, albeit unique, is not a huge amount different than a regular POS algorithm, the only difference being that it takes into consideration how many transactions you make.

If you think it can easily be cheated, well i guess all you need to do is move your funds across different accounts constantly.

My importance score has hardly changed from day one anyway.

[iamnotback]

the POI algorithm, albeit unique, is not a huge amount different than a regular POS algorithm, the only difference being that it takes into consideration how many transactions you make.

If you think it can easily be cheated, well i guess all you need to do is move your funds across different accounts constantly.

Thanks for confirming it is just proof-of-stake with some weighting by the transaction graph. That is my read also:

http://nem.io/NEM_techRef.pdf#section.7

As for whether it's security could be gamed (leading to The DAO like failure), well I would argue that the risk is nonzero (given that anyone can make a lot of transactions) until it has been properly peer reviewed. You can't trust one guy to do this sort of analysis.

[nzminer]

the POI algorithm, albeit unique, is not a huge amount different than a regular POS algorithm, the only difference being that it takes into consideration how many transactions you make.

If you think it can easily be cheated, well i guess all you need to do is move your funds across different accounts constantly.

Thanks for confirming it is just proof-of-stake with some weighting by the transaction graph. That is my read also:

http://nem.io/NEM_techRef.pdf#section.7

As for whether it's security could be gamed (leading to The DAO like failure), well I would argue that the risk is nonzero (given that anyone can make a lot of transactions) until it has been properly peer reviewed. You can't trust one guy to do this sort of analysis.

Well it will be interesting analysis when the code is made open source.
I think its more complex than just moving from one account to another, i think it also takes into consideration the size of the transaction etc.

If its well coded it should be able to work out if you are moving your funds around from account to account.
I think you would have to make many transactions to multiple addresses, and make use a different address each time to circumvent the system, either way, i dont think it would be easy, and then all the fees on top of that may not even make such an attempt worthwhile to pursue.

we will wait and see anyway.
Interestingly I myself have thought about this if it was simple as shifting funds to and from other addresses, and i dont think it would be very easy to cheat to any significant level.
And i dont think if could work even if it could be severly cheated, if a few were doing this, i think it would still balance out, as everyone is still paying the same fees, and they cant go to all the accounts that were cheating.

[jabo38]

> Public pagerank algorithm

> Totally ungameable

http://cointelegraph.com/news/proof-of-importance-nem-is-going-to-add-reputations-to-the-blockchain

Makoto continues by saying:

“This algorithm gives a pretty good approximation for the graph-theoretic importance of a node in the transaction graph.”

>“This algorithm gives a pretty good approximation for the graph-theoretic importance of a node in the transaction graph.”

> pretty good approximation for the graph-theoretic importance of a node

> pretty good approximation

Thats because its pagerank. And theres a reason that pagerank was closed source and constantly modified to keep up with people trying to game it, before it was eventually deprecated.

Nice job fleecing people with zero tech education. I guarantee someone bought up the majority of the float at or below 18 satoshi apiece, and the only reason the price is so high is because of the locked up majority. GG XEM, stay classy. Enjoy your pump, suckers.


Discuss.

The thing you are specifically referring to is NCDawareRank.

1.  NCDawareRank is not page rank, but is "similar" to page rank in what it looks to acheive.

2.  NCDawareRank is just a very small part of POI. 

How small? 

Here is the formula. 

The importance score, ψ, is calculated as follows:

ψ = (normalize1(max(0, ν + σwo)) + ˆπwi)χ

where:
normalize1(v) is: vkvk
ν is the vested amount of XEM
σ is the weighted, net outlinking XEM
πˆ is the NCDawareRank score
χ is a weighting vector that considers the structural topology of the graph
wo, wi are suitable constants

So, as you can see πˆ is an important part of one's POI, it is by no means the only part. 

[iamnotback]

I had also written else where:

The reputation/rank aspect is just proof-of-stake in transactions. It has the same properties of proof-of-stake wherein your stake determines how much rank you realistically have (and not just lose it all to transaction fees).

Also since it requires the transaction graph, then it is incompatible with privacy and anonymity.

I don't understand why everyone is so excited about NEM. It is just a rehash of PoS. Where is the innovation?

[kelsey]

also seems to be lost on the current XEM crowd is that the distribution was a scam, one of the distributes admitting to having claimed a big stab of the giveaway shares 

[nzminer]

I had also written else where:

The reputation/rank aspect is just proof-of-stake in transactions. It has the same properties of proof-of-stake wherein your stake determines how much rank you realistically have (and not just lose it all to transaction fees).

Also since it requires the transaction graph, then it is incompatible with privacy and anonymity.

I don't understand why everyone is so excited about NEM. It is just a rehash of PoS. Where is the innovation?

There is SERIOUSLY alot more to NEM than POI! 

[iamnotback]

There is SERIOUSLY alot more to NEM than POI!

Such as?

I understand it has some well developed functionality, but it seems like nothing really stands out as the USP. What is the USP?

[PovertyByte]

I am curious about this coin. I hardly see it discussed probably because it is a 100% ICO like a shitcoin would be and no miners for it shorts discussion on here.

I do want to know more about what makes this good. Stuff I read is it is original code rather than a fork but I do not understand this PoI stuff.

[nzminer]

I am curious about this coin. I hardly see it discussed probably because it is a 100% ICO like a shitcoin would be and no miners for it shorts discussion on here.

I do want to know more about what makes this good. Stuff I read is it is original code rather than a fork but I do not understand this PoI stuff.

I can tell you that NEM is not 100% an ICO like you think.

Many people received a free stake just for simply posting in the ANN thread.

Code is original, it was intended to be based on NXT at the beginning, but they decided to start with a 100% new code base.

TBH, NEM has far exceeded my expectations and I never for one ever imagined it would be where it is now.

PoI is basically PoS with a few improvements that also take into account how active a particular node is on the network, rather than just the account balance of any particular account.

TBH, this is not even what makes NEM special, every coin out there seems to generate a whole lot of hype about their "special" staking algorithms etc, but NEM does not make any such claims.

NEM on the other hand is a rock solid platform that has not been hyped up by a whole lot of hot air.
Its performance simply speaks for itself and delivers on how it performs rather than what promises many devs claim about the 99% of shitcoins out there.

If you are looking for something that is rock solid, scalable, fast, secure and reliable than NEM is your answer.

The pitfalls of BTC, ETH and the majority of other copycat shitcoins are evident.

There are only a handful of projects that have a unique approach that are up to the task.

Its still in the early days of crypto adoption, but NEM has a very bright future and there are serious partnerships underway that will benefit crypto as a whole.

[PovertyByte]

I am curious about this coin. I hardly see it discussed probably because it is a 100% ICO like a shitcoin would be and no miners for it shorts discussion on here.

I do want to know more about what makes this good. Stuff I read is it is original code rather than a fork but I do not understand this PoI stuff.

I can tell you that NEM is not 100% an ICO like you think.

Many people received a free stake just for simply posting in the ANN thread.

Code is original, it was intended to be based on NXT at the beginning, but they decided to start with a 100% new code base.

TBH, NEM has far exceeded my expectations and I never for one ever imagined it would be where it is now.

PoI is basically PoS with a few improvements that also take into account how active a particular node is on the network, rather than just the account balance of any particular account.

TBH, this is not even what makes NEM special, every coin out there seems to generate a whole lot of hype about their "special" staking algorithms etc, but NEM does not make any such claims.

NEM on the other hand is a rock solid platform that has not been hyped up by a whole lot of hot air.
Its performance simply speaks for itself and delivers on how it performs rather than what promises many devs claim about the 99% of shitcoins out there.

If you are looking for something that is rock solid, scalable, fast, secure and reliable than NEM is your answer.

The pitfalls of BTC, ETH and the majority of other copycat shitcoins are evident.

There are only a handful of projects that have a unique approach that are up to the task.

Its still in the early days of crypto adoption, but NEM has a very bright future and there are serious partnerships underway that will benefit crypto as a whole.

I picked up about 780 NEM before when it was cheaper than it is now since I was able to identify a moment where some market whales were playing with the price and bought in a little bit on a low point

Thing is, what will make this coin adoptable to people where Dash as I see compared to this for being a day to day currency would not? Don't say premine with this one

An immediate point I can recognize for the usability of it is that unlike dash where everyone is counting down from 1, NEM would be counting up more which is far more friendly

[franc0]

I can explain POI in a few words.

Think about the loyalty points that you earn when you use your credit card, the more you spend money with your credit card the more points your bank gives you. It's similar.

POI takes into account the number of coins balance you have in your wallet (like any other proof of stake) + your activity in the network, meaning that the more you spend your NEM (sending NEM transactions to other wallet addresses) the more importance score you will have. And the more importance score you have, the more you can harvest (mining) NEM's.

Now you will think that you can have two wallets and send you NEM to one wallet to another and back again multiple times to increase your importance score, that won't work, you will end up losing all your NEM because fees and other mechanisms the algorithm has to prevent this cheating to the network. So, to increase your score you will have, to be honest, and spend your NEM normally, just when you need to spend your NEM and not on purpose.

Right now my wallet has an importance score to the network of 1.15%. But I'm just holding NEM, so if I were spending my NEM buying goods or services my importance score would be higher. That's why a NEM store like eBay would be a great idea for the people that want to buy stuff on the internet, it will be attractive for NEM users to buy the stuff there as they know they will increase their importance by buying there.  Is also attractive for online Stores to start accepting NEM as they know they will attract NEM customers naturally.

That's why the POI is awesome in my opinion.

[iamnotback]

But even if PoI is better at assigning importance (and it hasn't been proven it can't be gamed), that doesn't ameliorate the bad parts of PoS that remain in PoI such as the nothing-at-stake security hole.

Also are transaction fees burned? If not, then it can be surely gamed.

[hardshot]

Also are transaction fees burned? If not, then it can be surely gamed.

explain..

[iamnotback]

Also are transaction fees burned? If not, then it can be surely gamed.

explain..

Because of the opportunity to find a way to game it or collude on it to have the fees paid to yourself, because you aren't burning any resource.

Then you can conduct as many transactions as you need to structure the transaction graph of PoI to your asymmetrical benefit.

[franc0]

I don't think fees are burned, i think fees are accumulated in blocks for the XEM harvesters. Otherwise how they will incentivise them. 

[PovertyByte]

I can explain POI in a few words.

Think about the loyalty points that you earn when you use your credit card, the more you spend money with your credit card the more points your bank gives you. It's similar.

POI takes into account the number of coins balance you have in your wallet (like any other proof of stake) + your activity in the network, meaning that the more you spend your NEM (sending NEM transactions to other wallet addresses) the more importance score you will have. And the more importance score you have, the more you can harvest (mining) NEM's.

Now you will think that you can have two wallets and send you NEM to one wallet to another and back again multiple times to increase your importance score, that won't work, you will end up losing all your NEM because fees and other mechanisms the algorithm has to prevent this cheating to the network. So, to increase your score you will have, to be honest, and spend your NEM normally, just when you need to spend your NEM and not on purpose.

Right now my wallet has an importance score to the network of 1.15%. But I'm just holding NEM, so if I were spending my NEM buying goods or services my importance score would be higher. That's why a NEM store like eBay would be a great idea for the people that want to buy stuff on the internet, it will be attractive for NEM users to buy the stuff there as they know they will increase their importance by buying there.  Is also attractive for online Stores to start accepting NEM as they know they will attract NEM customers naturally.

That's why the POI is awesome in my opinion.

That is interesting and I get the whole transaction fees vs. importance score. Basically this coin has some incentive towards making transactions you would have made anyway.

Just need to know where these harvested coins come from. Purely from transaction fees or is it mined and new?

[franc0]

I can explain POI in a few words.

Think about the loyalty points that you earn when you use your credit card, the more you spend money with your credit card the more points your bank gives you. It's similar.

POI takes into account the number of coins balance you have in your wallet (like any other proof of stake) + your activity in the network, meaning that the more you spend your NEM (sending NEM transactions to other wallet addresses) the more importance score you will have. And the more importance score you have, the more you can harvest (mining) NEM's.

Now you will think that you can have two wallets and send you NEM to one wallet to another and back again multiple times to increase your importance score, that won't work, you will end up losing all your NEM because fees and other mechanisms the algorithm has to prevent this cheating to the network. So, to increase your score you will have, to be honest, and spend your NEM normally, just when you need to spend your NEM and not on purpose.

Right now my wallet has an importance score to the network of 1.15%. But I'm just holding NEM, so if I were spending my NEM buying goods or services my importance score would be higher. That's why a NEM store like eBay would be a great idea for the people that want to buy stuff on the internet, it will be attractive for NEM users to buy the stuff there as they know they will increase their importance by buying there.  Is also attractive for online Stores to start accepting NEM as they know they will attract NEM customers naturally.

That's why the POI is awesome in my opinion.

That is interesting and I get the whole transaction fees vs. importance score. Basically this coin has some incentive towards making transactions you would have made anyway.

Just need to know where these harvested coins come from. Purely from transaction fees or is it mined and new?

purely from fees I think, 9 billion NEM coins were created and distributed and there will never be more than 9 billion. 1 coin aprox for each person in earth