End of Governments

[Severian]

I don't even believe in the free-market fairy.

If you've ever conducted a transaction or made a trade in which you and the other person consented to the exchange, the free market fairy was hovering over your head.

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[cbeast]

I don't even believe in the free-market fairy.

If you've ever conducted a transaction or made a trade in which you and the other person consented to the exchange, the free market fairy was hovering over your head.

Oh I don't know. I had to travel on publicly funded roads to get to the store. I had to use publicly funded GPS to find my way there. Most clerks at the stores are probably home-schooled;-) but some of them were products of a public school. I could go on, but suffice to say that much of the modern industrial and economic infrastructure is not the product of a free-market.

[myrkul]

I don't even believe in the free-market fairy.

If you've ever conducted a transaction or made a trade in which you and the other person consented to the exchange, the free market fairy was hovering over your head.

Oh I don't know. I had to travel on publicly funded roads to get to the store. I had to use publicly funded GPS to find my way there. Most clerks at the stores are probably home-schooled;-) but some of them were products of a public school. I could go on, but suffice to say that much of the modern industrial and economic infrastructure is not the product of a free-market.

Like the publicly funded oil pipelines - oops, no, not those.
Or the publicly funded electrical grid... oh, not that, either.
Maybe the publicly provided internet you're using... oops, not that, either.

Perhaps your public school education explains why you needed GPS to find the grocery store....

[cbeast]

I don't even believe in the free-market fairy.

If you've ever conducted a transaction or made a trade in which you and the other person consented to the exchange, the free market fairy was hovering over your head.

Oh I don't know. I had to travel on publicly funded roads to get to the store. I had to use publicly funded GPS to find my way there. Most clerks at the stores are probably home-schooled;-) but some of them were products of a public school. I could go on, but suffice to say that much of the modern industrial and economic infrastructure is not the product of a free-market.

Like the publicly funded oil pipelines - oops, no, not those.
Or the publicly funded electrical grid... oh, not that, either.
Maybe the publicly provided internet you're using... oops, not that, either.

Perhaps your public school education explains why you needed GPS to find the grocery store....

You win. You are so smart.

[Lethn]

You don't seem to get the point he's trying to make cbeast, as long as two parties involved consent that is a free market, do you think the government could get all of those without peoples consent? The problem is of course the percentage of people who consented at the time all the spending started has massively decreased because people hardly vote any more and when questioned about this our 'leaders' just shrug and go "Yes it's a problem" then carry on as normal as long as they have a majority.

Going a little bit off topic here, but if we're going to talk about this mathematically I'll put it into perspective for you. I'm sure you've seen these 'opinion' polls which are made up of about 2000 people or so which morons claim represent the opinions of an entire country. Well elections are a lot like that except on a slightly bigger scale, if you have millions upon millions of unregistered voters or people who specifically choose not to vote and only a couple of million register and vote for a party then that does not mean that the couple of million people are actually representative of the country nor are their leaders.

Don't think just because you're told it's 'publicly' funded that it's the case, in fact with the UK in particular we have a problem of supposedly 'public' government services being outsourced to privately funded agencies because of cost and so on. Who do you think that the government hands out it's contracts too? Who do you think produces all the military equipment they purchase? The whole situation is so fucked up it's probably going to take historians several thousand years into the future even more years to uncover all the bullshit and propaganda that has been made by our governments to trick gullible people like you cbeast. You seriously need to start at least researching the things people tell you because you sound like how I thought when I was younger and believed all the bullshit I was told too.

[Severian]

much of the modern industrial and economic infrastructure is not the product of a free-market.

I agree. That's why so much of that infrastructure is fucked. It's the product of the billions of coercive efforts on the part of State actors, not the result of billions of consenting efforts on the part of individuals.

You can either have the evils of a consensual system or the evils of a coercive system. I choose to live in a consensual system as far as is humanly possible in the larger coercive system.

[Severian]

Perhaps your public school education explains why you needed GPS to find the grocery store....

That's just mean but I laughed anyway.

No offense, cbeast.

[cbeast]

Where do your free-market fairies live that don't have publicly financed infrastructure? Because if they were so efficient and profitable, sure they must have streets paved with gold, food shelves bursting with the sweetest fruits and meats, and flying cars!

[myrkul]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

[cbeast]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

[myrkul]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

[cbeast]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population. Thank you for such fine examples. I am getting such a good education here.

[myrkul]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

[cbeast]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

[myrkul]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

[Severian]

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Big Pharma also has quite the stranglehold on the "free" American economy. There's more drugs on the black market in the US than there is in Afghanistan.

Free markets will always look like the wild west to anyone with a predilection to centralization and the dull order of life under the State.

[FirstAscent]

Just a quick note: Bitcoin only allows you to avoid taxes because it's not well adopted. In everyone's fantasies here, with currency collapse and full adoption of Bitcoin, then you'll be back to square one and paying taxes again.

Stop your delusions.

[myrkul]

Bitcoin allows tax avoidance because it's impossible to prove how much a person has, even if they publish an address.

[flaab]

People getting paid in bitcoin can avoid tax if they spend/keep their bitcoin in the bitcoin world

Wrong - that's called tax evasion.  Receipt of bitcoin is like receipt of gold - it must be reported as income to the tax authority in your nation.

I never volunteer to pay a thief.

[cbeast]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

My original question was not if the market can meet needs, but whether there is such a thing as a free-market without a publicly created infrastructure. Do you feel you have done that?