End of Governments

[myrkul]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

My original question was not if the market can meet needs, but whether there is such a thing as a free-market without a publicly created infrastructure. Do you feel you have done that?

Is there a market need for infrastructure? Do people want infrastructure? Are they willing to pay?

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[cbeast]

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

My original question was not if the market can meet needs, but whether there is such a thing as a free-market without a publicly created infrastructure. Do you feel you have done that?

Is there a market need for infrastructure? Do people want infrastructure? Are they willing to pay?

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity? Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

[myrkul]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

[cbeast]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

[myrkul]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

That's an interesting theory.

[Severian]

Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization.

Are you claiming that government = civilization?

[zeroday]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity? Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

Don't you think that this way you are just paying for your safety?
Imagine how these hungry crowds of lazy poor people rob and kill you and other wealthy people around just for food and drugs. Even your shotgun won't help as they are also armed and outnumber you.
And this scenario is very typical for non-civilized part of our world...

[myrkul]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity? Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

Don't you think that this way you are just paying for your safety?
Imagine how these hungry crowds of lazy poor people rob and kill you and other wealthy people around just for food and drugs. Even your shotgun won't help as they are also armed and outnumber you.
And this scenario is very typical for non-civilized part of our world...

In the "civilized" parts of the world, the hungry crowds of lazy poor people select thugs to do their robbing and killing for them.

[zeroday]

In the "civilized" parts of the world, the hungry crowds of lazy poor people select thugs to do their robbing and killing for them.

Mostly robbing, but not killing, and, for sure, you have much more chances to survive in the US than somewhere in Africa or A-stan. That's the difference between civilized world and non-civilized

[myrkul]

In the "civilized" parts of the world, the hungry crowds of lazy poor people select thugs to do their robbing and killing for them.

Mostly robbing, but not killing, and, for sure, you have much more chances to survive in the US than somewhere in Africa or A-stan. That's the difference between civilized world and non-civilized

Not killing? A quick google search will disprove that...

And what do you suppose happens if you object to the robbing?

[zeroday]

Not killing? A quick google search will disprove that...

And what do you suppose happens if you object to the robbing?

I mean that 0.000001% chance of being killed in "civilized" word is better against 0.01% chance in non-civilized. Oh, and of course the chance to survive will be much higher if you pay tributes to local tribal leader

[cbeast]

Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization.

Are you claiming that government = civilization?

I am not an anthropologist. But yes, In the modern era I will argue that civilization requires a government for protection at the very minimum. Since you are not supporting your argument and are merely fabricating fallacious attacks, I will return you to my ignore list and you may continue to troll in your free-market fairyland.

[myrkul]

Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization.

Are you claiming that government = civilization?

I am not an anthropologist. But yes, In the modern era I will argue that civilization requires a government for protection at the very minimum. Since you are not supporting your argument and are merely fabricating fallacious attacks, I will return you to my ignore list and you may continue to troll in your free-market fairyland.

Looked to me as though he was asking you to clarify your position.

I am curious, though, why protection must be forced upon people, if it's so necessary. Would people not voluntarily seek protection?

[Anon136]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

[cbeast]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

[myrkul]

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

And then we start selecting our defenders ourselves, instead of our defenders forcing their protection upon us. Progress!

But again, you seem to forget that the roving bandits would have nothing to steal, if the tribe had not been already specializing... (ie, practicing civilization)

[Monster Tent]

I think you should be free to choose which country you want to live in up till you are 18-25. By this I mean you arent a citizen untill you actually sign a contract. A child cant understand or sign contracts so why should they be forced into one because of birth ?

This is why the Amish let their teenagers go into the world for a year or two as teenagers so that when they return it is their own choice.

[Mike Christ]

Darn Anarchists.  Just as bad as those darn Atheists.  Always gotta go around shouting your hoo-haw and your fiddley-fud.

[myrkul]

Darn Anarchists.  Just as bad as those darn Atheists.  Always gotta go around shouting your hoo-haw and your fiddley-fud.

Ruining your comfortable illusions with our pesky logic....

[Sage]

The "end of government" would mean the end of peace, security, freedom, and all the infrastructure that has never worked without a governing authority.

People love to talk about how the U.S. government oppresses them.  I would suggest spending some coins on a world history course. We live in the safest, free-est conditions the world has ever known. You can expect to get old and have many of your diseases cured. You likely won't die in a war or starve.

Do a little traveling.  I don't know how you are measuring freedom, but I feel far more free outside the US then I ever did in it.