My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou)

[iamnotback]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1518518.msg15373900#msg15373900

[iamnotback]

POW is the LEAST dirty way of generating coins in a fair manner since anyone in the world can mine on virtually the same ground

You can't prove how many people weren't mining with stolen cloud computing as I pointed out:

...even stolen cloud cloud computing accounts...

Monero and Bitcoin can never prove their distribution was any more fair than any other.

Sorry. Monero has no more "holier than thou" bullshit excuse for their lack of leadership and rapid development.

To make sure it is 100% clear that my only recent complaint against Monero were the following and nothing else:

1. Their "we are the shit and assimilate or die" community attitude.

I think you may be misinterpreting the "We are the only viable fungable choice join us while there is still time before TPTB move against us" for "your coin is stupid capitulate".


Although those arguments do come in the form of trolling far too often but as a community we really don't have control of that and that is what makes it an open community, your arguing for a centralized authority to come in and control which is against all VC  beliefs. Think about that please. You have to take the good with the bad in some situations to achieve true freedom.

2. Pushing it as the only worthy altcoin, when in fact they haven't yet earned that distinction. Just because you claim to have competitive and fair distribution and an open source development, doesn't mean you've actually changed anything yet in our world and ecosystem. It will be self-evident once you do.

I may be wrong but I do believe (even when I'm not holding like right now) that XMR really is the only current viable solution to fungability. If you know of another please enlighten me, and don't tell me about vaporware, I mean a tangible functioning product right now. In the future this assuredly will not be true but right now I believe it to be.

Perhaps you missed my rebuttal to that "Monero is fungible" sales pitch:

Only systems that are structurally incompatible with fraud don't suffer from the overhang of potential fraud.

This is indeed true. Unfortunately Monero has periodic forks and thus its mining is not structurally incompatible with protocol fucked by the consensus or even a very powerful hashrate adversary.

So to argue that ring sigs are structurally incompatible with blacklisting is not absolutely true, for as long as mining could change the protocol and force every txn to reveal its viewkey.

Altcoins can't have assured protocol resilience without assured decentralization of mining AND scaling. Because without scaling, you can't prevent against 51% (or 10X) attack.

[Shrikez]

I think even a cursory glance over this forum section will make your position re: Monero abundantly clear by now as you can't help but to crosspost your opinion about that project in every troll or non troll thread.

Are you planning on going back to coding anytime soon? Or will you continue spending your energy in expressing your disgust?
They might or might not have a lack of leadership, but you are most certainly lacking any form of mature self control at the moment.

[iamnotback]

I think even a cursory glance over this forum section will make your position re: Monero abundantly clear by now as you can't help but to crosspost your opinion about that project in every troll or non troll thread.

Are you planning on going back to coding anytime soon? Or will you continue spending your energy in expressing your disgust?
They might or might not have a lack of leadership, but you are most certainly lacking any form of mature self control at the moment.

I understand. But I think my burst here based on a new insight about proof-of-work not being any more provably fair, that no one has written about before, justifies making sure that enough readers are aware of this new way of thinking about fairness of altcoins.

And Monero has bullshitted everyone so much with their dogma, I think it is justified to make it front page news, when all their dogma is revealed to be bullshit.

They should focus on telling the truth, which is they are an anonymity technology token. Period. Until that changes.

They stop the bullshit. And I go coding. Deal?

[Shrikez]

I think even a cursory glance over this forum section will make your position re: Monero abundantly clear by now as you can't help but to crosspost your opinion about that project in every troll or non troll thread.

Are you planning on going back to coding anytime soon? Or will you continue spending your energy in expressing your disgust?
They might or might not have a lack of leadership, but you are most certainly lacking any form of mature self control at the moment.

I understand. But I think my burst here based on a new insight about proof-of-work not being any more provably fair, that no one has written about before, justifies making sure that enough readers are aware of this new way of thinking about fairness of altcoins.

And Monero has bullshitted everyone so much with their dogma, I think it is justified to make it front page news, when all their dogma is revealed to be bullshit.

They should focus on telling the truth, which is they are an anonymity technology token. Period. Until that changes.

They stop the bullshit. And I go coding. Deal?

Not a deal I am able to entertain, sorry. You can control yourself but I am unable - and unwilling - to control some random people on the internet. besides. I'm a nobody.
I like most of what I see from the Monero community, for some I care less, for some I care more. Just as in real life.

You will have to find more suitable partner for that agreement.  

Over and out, sleep is healthy :p

Edit: For what it's worth, your video made you very sympathetic. I just don't get that periodical raging bull mode. I also think you are barking up the wrong tree, but that is my personal opinion and not worth discussing as you won't convince me otherwise and I won't convince you.

[iamnotback]

I like most of what I see from the Monero community, for some I care less, for some I care more. Just as in real life.

I don't like promotional dogma (i.e. lies & deception masquerading as idealistic), bullshit, and lack of complete solutions that could actually make a difference.

If they were more humblehonest and admitted they were just trying to make anonymity with a proof-of-work launch, and not try to claim greater lies such as "the only fairly launched, fungible cash", etc.., then I wouldn't dislike them.

[ArticMine]

Why do you not simply argue that Moenro's POW is unfair because it discriminates against Americans in favor of Canadians? Furthermore even within the same Canadian province there is also discrimination since those who live in Prince George BC like myself, have an unfair advantage over those who live in Victoria BC. As for those who live in any part of Africa they are really discriminated against. Then there is also religions discrimination. The economics of mining Monero are very different in say Vatican City and Makkah. Jerusalem is somewhere in between.

[iamnotback]

Why do you not simply argue that Moenro's POW is unfair because it discriminates against Americans in favor of Canadians? Furthermore even within the same Canadian province there is also discrimination since those who live in Prince George BC like myself, have an unfair advantage over those who live in Victoria BC. As for those who live in any part of Africa they are really discriminated against. Then there is also religions discrimination. The economics of mining Monero are very different in say Vatican City and Makkah. Jerusalem is somewhere in between.

Fairness has nothing to do with uniformity.

[ArticMine]

The weather creates an uneven playing field https://www.wunderground.com

[iamnotback]

The weather creates an uneven playing field https://www.wunderground.com

Yes the Butterfly Effect impacts everything. But if anything you are supporting the position that it doesn't matter which method of distribution is employed. So why are you arguing against Monero's "only proof-of-work is fair" doctrine?

My point is that the distribution can have some mathematically provable bounds on insider ownership (my plan), so some people may judge this is more or equivalently trustless (i.e. worthy) as a proof-of-work launch. Others may have a different opinion.

And my point is Monero can't use that dogma to claim they are provably more fairly distributed.

[ArticMine]

The weather creates an uneven playing field https://www.wunderground.com

Yes the Butterfly Effect impacts everything. But if anything you are supporting the position that it doesn't matter which method of distribution is employed. So why are you arguing against Monero's "only proof-of-work is fair" doctrine?

My point is that the distribution can have some mathematically provable bounds on insider ownership (my plan), so some people may judge this is more or equivalently trustless (i.e. worthy) as a proof-of-work launch. Others may have a different opinion.

And my point is Monero can't use that dogma to claim they are provably more fairly distributed.

First of all, there is no point in comparing Monero's distribution method or that of any coin for that matter with your proprietary secret sauce. As far as I am concerned, your proprietary secret sauce has zero value until people can use it. That means you will have to reveal it and run the risk that someone will copy it and not pay you for your intellectual property, As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

[iamnotback]

As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

You can't prove that. How many people weren't using stolen cloud mining accounts as I already explained upthread.

You can't just make up bullshit without proof, math, and a white paper.

Are you sure you are actually an academic 

[ArticMine]

As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

You can't prove that. How many people weren't using stolen cloud mining accounts as I already explained upthread.

You can't just make up bullshit without proof, math, and a white paper.

Are you sure you are actually an academic  

I do not need to. It is you that is making the claim that it is not, and proving a negative is even harder. What I have already done is disprove your assertion that POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity. That is why the weather is so critical.

Edit: In another context I would agree than my claim requires proof; however give the title of this thread "My rebuttal to the fairness of proof-of-work launch (Monero's holier than thou)" my claim is valid since the onus is on the OP to prove his assertion not on the rest of use to disprove it.

[iamnotback]

As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

You can't prove that. How many people weren't using stolen cloud mining accounts as I already explained upthread.

You can't just make up bullshit without proof, math, and a white paper.

Are you sure you are actually an academic  

I do not need to.

You can't make any claim about proof-of-work launch distribution being more fair, unless you can prove that you know how much hashrate was produced using stolen cloud mining accounts (and other ways of cheating the fairness).

It is you that is making the claim that it is not, and proving a negative is even harder.

I am not required to prove there was no stolen cloud mining accounts involved in mining. You have to prove the negative. You got that part backwards.

What I have already done is disprove your assertion that POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity. That is why the weather is so critical.

You have presented no proof of anything. When the white paper is ready, please reply.

[iamnotback]

As far as I am concerned, your proprietary secret sauce has zero value until people can use it. That means you will have to reveal it and run the risk that someone will copy it and not pay you for your intellectual property, As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

Thanks for promoting theft. Thanks for promoting the force of viral communist Copyleft licenses. Thanks for all the dogma you've been destroying the altcoin ecosystem with.

Now please go away!

[r0ach]

You can't justify IPOs due to what I said here, you're just recreating the Federal Reserve:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524286.msg15337113#msg15337113

[ArticMine]

You still have not answered my rebuttal to your claim "POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity". It is you who drew your gun first and fired wide. Now I get to shoot. You Americans should understand this.

Edit 1: One does not need a mathematical proof or a white paper for something that should be obvious: Such as In many cases it makes economic sense to run an electric space heater when it is -40 C or F outside.

Edit 2: Maybe you slipped on the ice.  

[ArticMine]

As far as I am concerned, your proprietary secret sauce has zero value until people can use it. That means you will have to reveal it and run the risk that someone will copy it and not pay you for your intellectual property, As far as what is already there in the market when it comes to fairness Monero's POW is among the best.

Thanks for promoting theft. Thanks for promoting the force of viral communist Copyleft licenses. Thanks for all the dogma you've been destroying the altcoin ecosystem with.

Now please go away!

I am not promoting theft, just telling it like it is. By the way I guess you will not be able to participate in the stock market, which is the heart of capitalism, since every major stock exchange uses software with "viral communist Copyleft licenses" The licenses were inspired by and to a large degree written by this guy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman. Furthermore  you also may not want to use Windows 10 because Microsoft has rewritten the Windows kernel in order to run the GNU toolchain on top of Windows. https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/03/30/run-bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows/.

Edit: I do not condone software piracy. Furthermore I have on more than one occasion identified software piracy and provided cost effective alternatives that eliminated the "theft of intellectual property". 

[Hueristic]

I have no clue what the fairest distribution is but the best (I would guess) would be an equal amount distributed to everyone and I have no clue how this could be accomplished and then there is of course an emission of that same amount being distributed to those born and whether it should be destroyed at death or not as well as what percentage should be put aside for the eco system. There is no perfect distribution and probably never will be. BTC's certainly was not fair but it is what it is, it's all in degree's of fairness. No-one complains about BTC's distribution and the job of alts is to find a acceptable to the masses distribution method and those do not include scams as they are always found out.

I did not continue to mine XMR on release (I stopped after 2 days) because I could tell there was too many coins than should have been. I have never been one to say it is the fairest distribution and I haven't noticed it being a selling point supporters are using. I've seen the argument that all the crippled miner coins have all been dumped out of the system by now and I believe this to be true. Now Shit coins like DRK were the worst possible distribution (and bytecoin for that matter) with the relaunch and out right lie about another relaunch which stopped most of us from mining it on the second launch only to have evan bribed by a large mining pool the next day. And all these premined coins are nothing more than money grabs. POw does seem to be the best method even if a percentage is gamed by illegal hash with  percentage going to a coins eco-system, what that percentage should be again I have no clue. I also have no clue how a continuous flow of Dev funds should be managed so as not to be gamed but since we are talking about fair distribution I would say that is a best case.

[illodin]

What I have already done is disprove your assertion that POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity. That is why the weather is so critical.

You still have not answered my rebuttal to your claim "POW mining is equivalent to paying the utility companies for electricity". It is you who drew your gun first and fired wide. Now I get to shoot. You Americans should understand this.

Edit 1: One does not need a mathematical proof or a white paper for something that should be obvious: Such as In many cases it makes economic sense to run an electric space heater when it is -40 C or F outside.

Edit 2: Maybe you slipped on the ice.  

It looks like in your excitement after coming up with a partial rebuttal to one part of a sentence you have missed the context, an unwitting strawman.

The context was that instead of funding development and the ecosystem, the miners are now funding something else. That something else can be electric power industry shareholders and/or hardware manufacturers like NVIDIA and AMD for example. Furthermore, people who can't use miners to heat their houses can't compete with those who can which causes even more centralization and unfair market condition.

Or perhaps the solution to fair distribution and funding development you're suggesting is to move all the devs to the north so they can get free coins while heating up their houses?