Has anyone actually filed an FTC complaint?

[wtfvanity]

Against BFL of course. I was just wondering.

I see lots of people like this for example https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.msg1624418#msg1624418

Who point out the FTC rules for preorders and what happens with delays. BFL is clearly in violation of that. (For that matter so is CP Tom)

Has anyone actually filed a complaint? Or are these mentions of FTC violations just wild rants?

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[BitcoinINV]

I did, and the community at the time thought I was just being a asshole..... well 6 months after that and now the mob is rising lol

[Vicus]

[troll]
More complaints! We need to shutdown BFL! For the Avalon!
[/troll]

[wtfvanity]

I did, and the community at the time thought I was just being a asshole..... well 6 months after that and now the mob is rising lol

Are you in the US? Did you just file online? Did you get anything more than a thank you for your submission? Unless they need specific more information, most people never hear another thing from them.

I guess that was the second part of the question. If you did file, have you heard anything else? And how did you pay? BTC or credit card?

[ralree]

Uh, refund.

[wtfvanity]

Uh, refund.

Refund doesn't mean they haven't broken the law. Again, I am just wondering how many people have. I didn't say that I even have a preorder. Just wondering since it seems to be threatened regularly.

[dykast]

While I understand people being mad and frustrated.  They offer refunds to anyone.   

What do you want to get out of the FTC complaint?

[wtfvanity]

While I understand people being mad and frustrated.  They offer refunds to anyone.   

What do you want to get out of the FTC complaint?

Their site explicitly says that they do not offer refunds, now. I believe the reason that the FTC exists partially is to protect consumers. If the ones that are mad just get a refund, that hardly protects others from having illegal business practices used against them.

If 5000 people have already filed complaints, it would also make anyone thinking about placing an order potentially not if the FTC were to be walking in any day to shut them down and levy fines.

Listen clearly... this is not a "hey everyone, click this link and file an FTC complaint against BFL", I want to know if lots of people have or not. That is all. Troll once the results are in however you'd like.

[dykast]

https://products.butterflylabs.com/sales/guest/form/

Not trying to defend them.  Just showing you it isn't that hard to get a refund.

[BitcoinINV]

I got a letter from my attorney generals office, then a response from BFL. It was online.
My state AG asked me if I was satisfied with the outcome, or if I wanted to pursue.
The reason I did not pursue was cause of the responses like dykast said, but that was also 6 months ago.
If the FTC fines them the fine may be compensation from losses resulted in late delivery, meaning you the customer will get a direct payment from the FTC as settlement.
I hope you understand all of you that pre-ordered invested in BFL have already lost revenue from their performance. They were supposed to be the first to market... that was one of the huge selling points they had.


That says returns not refunds, you must have the product to return it lol

[BitcoinINV]

Right off the BFL website

QCan I get a refund on my pre-order?
A
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.

This is a clear cut FTC violation. Nov +30 days = months ago lol

[dykast]

Ok, so we can get compensation for lost revenue as a preorder customer. 

I am just trying to understand the purpose.  Not taking sides, just trying to figure it out.

[BitcoinINV]

You would never know unless you go through with it, your best bet is to look into it yourself call the FTC they got a hotline and ask them questions.

[tacotime]

I'm frankly surprised no one has pursued legal action against BFL at this point.

[creativex]

I'm frankly surprised no one has pursued legal action against BFL at this point.

Investors with 3rd degree Stockholm syndrome and a community with a long history of defending it's scammers are in BFL's favor. Toss in the occasional sock-puppet poster and a PR shock jock figurehead that verbally assaults any outspoken outliers. Voila, successful vaporware business. Box of fans table for none ready in just 4-6 weeks.

[repentance]

I'm frankly surprised no one has pursued legal action against BFL at this point.

Legal action for what?  There's a massive difference between a company breaking some regulation and being potentially open to fines and customers having a viable lawsuit against them.  To date, they haven't refused anyone a refund.  While I think that their marketing has been extremely deceptive (which may - in itself - be of interest to consumer protection agencies), what are anyone's actual, provable damages at this point?  What - exactly - makes BFL customers entitled to more than just a refund?

On the one hand, BFL's repeated assurances over the past few months that delivery is only a few weeks ago have no doubt been relied upon by some customers (despite repeated evidence that such assurances cannot be relied upon).  On the other hand, customers have actively chosen not to cancel their pre-orders as the price of Bitcoin rose - they have essentially done nothing to mitigate their "damages".  

While BFL may be technically on the wrong side of consumer law in this situation, that's not necessarily any great advantage to their customers until and unless they start refusing refunds.

Investors with 3rd degree Stockholm syndrome and a community with a long history of defending it's scammers are in BFL's favor.

You forgot greed.  People aren't cancelling their orders because they want to be among the first to mine with ASICs.  If someone else was offering large quantities of ASICs available for delivery right now, I suspect BFL would see a lot of cancelled orders.  Batch 1 and 2 customers might still hang in there, but I suspect that many people who can't expect to see a BFL ASIC until mid-year even if there are no further schedule slips would jump ship.

[creativex]

I didn't forget about greed as a factor, I just recognize that BFL recognized the greed factor when they planned their scammy bait and switch. The order line queue system has ensured that the vast majority of people that have been swindled will not cancel due to the perceived value of their order position. That's what makes them captives, so that they can experience the 3rd degree Stockholm syndrome previously alluded to.

[PuertoLibre]

You forgot greed.  People aren't cancelling their orders because they want to be among the first to mine with ASICs.  If someone else was offering large quantities of ASICs available for delivery right now, I suspect BFL would see a lot of cancelled orders.  Batch 1 and 2 customers might still hang in there, but I suspect that many people who can't expect to see a BFL ASIC until mid-year even if there are no further schedule slips would jump ship.

This is the eventual clusterfuck I was imagining would happen.

People see others get theirs, and then pound the doors demanding on where their device is.

One lone BFL guy isn't going to be able to tell them it will ship in June or July. It'll end in a clusterfuck in one way or another. That is my 2 LTC (if I had any!)

[repentance]

I didn't forget about greed as a factor, I just recognize that BFL recognized the greed factor when they planned their scammy bait and switch. The order line queue system has ensured that the vast majority of people that have been swindled will not cancel due to the perceived value of their order position. That's what makes them captives, so that they can experience the 3rd degree Stockholm syndrome previously alluded to.

Perceived value of order position really only applies to those who ordered very early, though.  It doesn't explain the willingness of people to order now, knowing that they'll be waiting at least 2-3 months to receive their units and it doesn't explain those who can't wait to use their discount vouchers (having already waited 9 months for their first units, they're willing to order more and wait months to receive those - knowing that the hash rate will have risen considerably by the time those units arrive).  

The only way BFL ASICs are going to be delivered in a reasonable amount of time is if production greatly outstrips the rate of new orders - and that's not likely to happen any time soon given that people have only 60 days to use their discount vouchers once BFL ships.  No-one at BFL is even giving an estimate on when they expect to have caught up on back-logged orders any more, but it's not likely to be in the first half of this year.  As things stand now, it's going to be a very long time before BFL has ASICs available for immediate delivery and anyone who can step in to fill that gap has the chance to take market share away from them. 

[PuertoLibre]

By the way, on BFL forums, there are a few users complaining they can't pay with Paypal. Some think it is a site error and BFL staff says they don't know, just try again.

I wonder if Paypal found out that BFL is doing Bitcoin Related transactions. I recall on the forum people said Paypal will cancel orders if they know it is Bitcoin related. Any truth to this?