Chinese Miners Revolt, Announces Plan to Hard Fork to Classic

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I may be naive, but isn't this sort of reckless all for an extra 1MB?

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[steeev]

arf!

what a load of artificially argumentative chuff on this thread...

in the name of the deranged comedy of 'classic'

[franky1]

I may be naive, but isn't this sort of reckless all for an extra 1MB?

you do know segwit is opting for 4mb bloat right..(1mb txdata 3mb witness area)
yet they claim 2mb is bad..

think about that.. its called hypocrisy, its just a shame the blockstream fanboys dont actually read code to know how much bloat segwit will be, and how little capacity increase it offers in return for that bloat
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/395521854efd5804433d57aaf69f46676e4b6efc

Code:

+/** The maximum allowed size for a serialized block, in bytes (only for buffer size limits) */
+static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SERIALIZED_SIZE = 4000000;
+/** The maximum allowed cost for a block, see BIP 141 (network rule) */
+static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_COST = 4000000;
+/** The maximum allowed size for a block excluding witness data, in bytes (network rule) */
+static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_BASE_SIZE = 1000000;

4000000bytes=4mb
serialised = total combined data
1000000byte base size = old blocksize limit now renamed and utilised for the non-witness data

so if you want a hard fork.. like many of us do to allow more Traditional transactions through, we need to convince core to increase their new buzzword
MAX_BLOCK_BASE_SIZE to 2000000

which classic, BU and other non core implementations who are sticking to the maxblocklimit word can increase their number to 2000000 aswell and everyone can play happily together with no contention

[PorkUsher]

[]

Ok, well we disagree.

If Miner's do not care about future use, but only the now, then they wouldn't investment more money into hashing.
That increase in hash is a vote of confidence of the future.

No, increase in hash rate is a vote in your future. Many miners will go belly-up. Which? Will it be the ones mining with obsolete junk on the brink of profitability, or the ones who have the latest-greats-most-efficient gear?
Who could mine at a loss longer? It makes sense if it will bankrupt your competition. Who can afford to dump coins on the market and drive down prices?
You don't allow for the mindnumbing complexity of how this thing works.

If Miner's only believe in the now, they better jump ship now before they default and go bankrupt.

Trust me, they're probably running fairly powerful market models, there are people who do this shit for a living. Not some bro doing back-of-the-Chinese-delivery-menu calculations. Whatever maximizes profit

[Lauda]

I dont think life is fair anyway. What about Satoshi and his vision for Bitcoin to become world number one currency and continuously scaling up to a point only the dataceners could handle the load, not individual home PCs. Who stabbed in the back his vision, do we appreciate he started Bitcoin at all? Should not Bitcoin follow his vision, and some altcoin try a different, artifically limited bloksizes perfectly suitable for home PCs bought around year 2005, now and forever.

That's not really a fair comparison is it? Satoshi abandoned the project, the Core developers are here. He may not have been aware of the potential control within the current system in addition to the mass surveillance. I think that having a datacenter-only system would be very risky.

If someone cannot afford 2 year old computer and normal 5Mbps connection, why should he have right to run Bitcoin full node - and why someone needs to run the full node on 10+ year old computer is out of my mind.

So you're telling me that if I don't upgrade my hardware every 2 years that I should have no right to run a full wallet? In other words you're telling me that I have to lose my 'sovereignty' as in be unable to validate the blocks and transactions? I think that anyone should be able to participate with decent hardware (not necessarily cheap, but not that expensive either).

First proposal was 20MB, core didn't like it, then got down to 8MB, core still didn't like it, then went to 2MB and core still don't want it. People have been extremely patient but when things only go one side with censorship on top at some point people can't take it anymore.

What if I told you that 20 MB blocks, 8 MB blocks and 2 MB blocks can break Bitcoin due to O(n^2) validation time? Is that censorship?  

Oh please. Tell me the miners believed they were signing an agreement with "individuals," tell me the press, this forum, r/bitcoin etc., celebrated the miners signing an agreement with "individuals." Show me how good you are at lying when it serves you.

Don't blame me if you're too dumb to comprehend something properly.
 

-snip-
Yeah, my opinion wouldn't be worth dick. If I did that, anyone with a shred of sanity and/or common sense would be absolutely obligated to point fingers and laugh at me.

I would not be the first person to state this. You'd know this if you weren't spending time trying to disrupt the system.

I may be naive, but isn't this sort of reckless all for an extra 1MB?

You're actually right.

[albert11]

First proposal was 20MB, core didn't like it, then got down to 8MB, core still didn't like it, then went to 2MB and core still don't want it. People have been extremely patient but when things only go one side with censorship on top at some point people can't take it anymore.

What if I told you that 20 MB blocks, 8 MB blocks and 2 MB blocks can break Bitcoin due to O(n^2) validation time? Is that censorship?  

If 2MB could break bitcoin, the biggest miners  would have never supported it. Basic common sense. Don't lie when you run out of argument please

[PorkUsher]

Now tell me I'm a fool to discount your opinion, when you don't even want to *tell* me you're a decent coder.

So your own opinion and the opinion of your 'buddies' is also worthless. Good to know.

If I made a statement along the lines of

Classic Core developers are like high school programmers in comparison to the people working on Core Classic.

...and I had exactly zero clout as a coder?
And then I refused to even tell you if I could even code?!

Yeah, my opinion wouldn't be worth dick. If I did that, anyone with a shred of sanity and/or common sense would be absolutely obligated to point fingers and laugh at me.

I would not be the first person to state this. You'd know this if you weren't spending time trying to disrupt the system.

In that case, your opinion is not really your opinion, you're just parroting shit that others said, without attributing or having the capacity to verify its veracity?
This just keeps getting better

Oh please. Tell me the miners believed they were signing an agreement with "individuals," tell me the press, this forum, r/bitcoin etc., celebrated the miners signing an agreement with "individuals." Show me how good you are at lying when it serves you.

Don't blame me if you're too dumb to comprehend something properly.

Lauda, I was the first one to say that the agreement was nothing but feel-good fluff.
Was ridiculed for that.
What you said about being "too dumb to comprehend something properly" tho? Should probably redirect it at the whole fucking Bitcoin community.
Won't be wrong, either.

[mayax]

some people cannot simply accept that the miners like other individuals or companies are after pure profit and they don't care if BTC burn or not. this is a business and nothing more.

Of course, the miners are investing because they earn tons of money DAILY. they invest in hardware because a better hardware = more money/cash(not shit on walls) DAILY.

Is BTC going down/no more profit? OK! They earned ALOT and they will find other businesses where to "invest"

[PorkUsher]

some people cannot simply accept that the miners like other individuals or companies are after pure profit and they don't care if BTC burn or not. this is a business and nothing more.

Of course, the miners are investing because they earn tons of money DAILY. they invest in hardware because a better hardware = more money/cash(not shit on walls) DAILY.

Is BTC going down/no more profit? OK! They earned ALOT and they will find other businesses where to "invest"

That's what some people here seem to miss -- yeah, miners have invested oodles of money, but that investment is amortized in months, not even years!
It's not like the gear won't be worthless in a few months anyway, how can people miss this? Bah!

[Cuidler]

If someone cannot afford 2 year old computer and normal 5Mbps connection, why should he have right to run Bitcoin full node - and why someone needs to run the full node on 10+ year old computer is out of my mind.

So you're telling me that if I don't upgrade my hardware every 2 years that I should have no right to run a full wallet? In other words you're telling me that I have to lose my 'sovereignty' as in be unable to validate the blocks and transactions? I think that anyone should be able to participate with decent hardware (not necessarily cheap, but not that expensive either).

2 years old hardware is very cheap one to my standard, thats why I put this example, but if your unable to upgrade once in a while then you should not expect your today computer is going to be able catch up with Bitcoin blockchain in the future, thats pretty reasonable - you should not expect to play future games on your today computer eighter. You will be able to inport private keys to any SVP client anyway if you cannot afford to upgrade your home computer anymore, and continue to play only older and older games as time goes if your gamer.

First proposal was 20MB, core didn't like it, then got down to 8MB, core still didn't like it, then went to 2MB and core still don't want it. People have been extremely patient but when things only go one side with censorship on top at some point people can't take it anymore.

What if I told you that 20 MB blocks, 8 MB blocks and 2 MB blocks can break Bitcoin due to O(n^2) validation time? Is that censorship? 

You know Gavin used limitations to resolve the O(n^2) validation time problem. Namely limiting maximum signature operations to 1.2 GB per block. As a benefit it would not be possible to O(n^2) attack even current 1 MB blocksize anymore with up to 10 minutes CPU validation in some cases - even segwit dont solve this possible O(n^2) attack on 1 MB blocksize. So the breaking of Bitcoin due to O(n^2) is not censorship, but FUD because your avare of this Gavin solution to my knowledge.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

[PorkUsher]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

https://67.media.tumblr.com/e3d1eb33aacf543e6fd0b7385a63be7e/tumblr_inline_o7grogYpRR1shfepe_540.jpg

jk. Why would you need to seek recourse? Got your heart set on Sturm und Drang Lightning network?
But yeah, as a hodler, you could... I don't know. You could run a full node... ...nah, that wouldn't make any difference. I know, you could probably fly to Shanghai Hong Kong and lie like a rug.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

jk. Why would you need to seek recourse? Got your heart set on Sturm und Drang Lightning network?

You once told me there's simply no elegant way to scale Bitcoin. You probably don't remember that, but it stuck.

[BitcoinNewsMagazine]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

This is all just FUD unless and until we see numbers of Classic nodes increasing dramatically. If that happens and a fork really does occur, you swallow your pride and join the winning fork no need to dump. Trezor already discussed contingency plans for their customers.

[mayax]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

you will find where the sheep are going. to "coreshit" or to miners shit   there will be NO difference

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

you will where the sheep are going. to "coreshit" or to miners shit   there will be NO difference

The difference would be the contentious hard frok stuck in the middle.

But yeah, as a hodler, you could... I don't know. You could run a full node... ...nah, that wouldn't make any difference. I know, you could probably fly to Shanghai Hong Kong and lie like a rug.

Does one full node amount to even a hill of beans in this crazy world?

[johnyj]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

Please dump your coins and I will pick them up

[PorkUsher]

In the hypothetical event this wasn't just a Twatter rumour started by Jihan Wu and 75% of the hash actually up and went to Classic, what recourse would the rest of us have? Aside from just dumping I mean.

you will where the sheep are going. to "coreshit" or to miners shit   there will be NO difference

The difference would be the contentious hard frok stuck in the middle.

You're not seriously worried about this, are you? How many times have you actually used BTC, if you exclude
-trading (this happens offchain)
-DNMs
-Novelty value
-show hapless friends/strangers insufficiently fleet of foot that our moon money really really works!

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Not seriously worried. Just curious.

[PorkUsher]

Not seriously worried. Just curious.

There is nothing you could do. Nothing.
But it's also not a pressing problem. Much like sending small sums of money, cheaply and quickly, to unbaked Bolivian pygmies has never really been a problem for me. Not until I learned how good bitcoin is at solving it.