Is there ever a case where the government could legally steal?

[DoomDumas]

Govt can enable "legal appropriation" (thief) of anything, anytime.. It's just a law being created..
Laws do not solves problems, they just path problems, often in an unfair way !

[MonadTran]

If you agree that you can do anything you want on what you clearly demarcate and defend as your property in a universe where no higher authority has domain over your little corner of the world, then you implicitly agree that in our universe on Earth, a country can do anything it wants on a territory which it clearly demarcates and defends as its own and no higher authority has domain over that nation, then we're on the same page. Congratulations if you understand that.

And be glad that in a world which offers many nations to choose from, some are pretty damn good. So good, in fact, that you would be a fool to complain and wish for something significantly different, as others here in this forum do indeed do.

OK, so I do enjoy that little freedom I have. I moved away from my home country. I am using bitcoins as much as it is reasonable. But I still have significant issues with the status quo.

1. Somebody owns me. And I see no way to set myself free. I can never be sure if a bunch of crazy politicians decide they need to impose their laws on me even when I am abroad. I can never be sure if they decide not to renew my passport. I believe human ownership is wrong, and it has to be stopped. There has to be a way to renounce all citizenship, if needed, and become a citizen of nowhere.
2. I'd like to have private property. Real private property, a place where I can set up my own rules, instead of following the rules set up by the government. The current system does not allow that, mainly for the reason that people are not used to this much freedom, they see it as something alien, and resort to familiar collectivist thinking they have been taught throughout their entire lives.

I am a realist. I realize these two issues are unlikely to be resolved during my lifetime. But I still think that humanity will wake up sooner or later. I'd feel better if I could speed up this awakening as much as possible.

So, would you agree, in principle, that these are real issues? Do you feel comfortable being owned? Do you feel comfortable having no private property? Would you like this to be changed (I am not saying any real changes are possible in our lifetime, just curious)?

[Elwar]

2. I'd like to have private property. Real private property, a place where I can set up my own rules, instead of following the rules set up by the government. The current system does not allow that,

The only option at this point is http://www.seasteading.org

[dotcom]

Government is almost universally inept and inefficient in everything it does.

I'll take that over a system which is fueled solely by the immediate desires of those who don't understand or acknowledge the long term effects.

You just described the u.s. federal government

[myrkul]

Government is almost universally inept and inefficient in everything it does.

I'll take that over a system which is fueled solely by the immediate desires of those who don't understand or acknowledge the long term effects.

You just described the u.s. federal government

To say nothing of the Chinese.

[Monster Tent]

If you weren't paying tax to the current protection racket another one would move in and take the role through invasion and war.

Im sure if the US gov became weak enough someone else would gladly take over for them. Perhaps the russians 

[myrkul]

If you weren't paying tax to the current protection racket another one would move in and take the role through invasion and war.

Im sure if the US gov became weak enough someone else would gladly take over for them. Perhaps the russians 

I got an idea. Howabout we get a legit protection company to take over, instead? You know, one that doesn't use threats to get their money?

[Monster Tent]

If you weren't paying tax to the current protection racket another one would move in and take the role through invasion and war.

Im sure if the US gov became weak enough someone else would gladly take over for them. Perhaps the russians  

I got an idea. Howabout we get a legit protection company to take over, instead? You know, one that doesn't use threats to get their money?

People view the government as legit as crappy as it is. I dont know of many protection agencies with the firepower to keep the US or many other governments from attacking you, and most people lack the resources that governments can command.


I dont say its fair or reasonable but thats just the way things are. Will probably require a zombie apocalypse or something that wipes out the central government before you get what you want.

[myrkul]

If you weren't paying tax to the current protection racket another one would move in and take the role through invasion and war.

Im sure if the US gov became weak enough someone else would gladly take over for them. Perhaps the russians  

I got an idea. Howabout we get a legit protection company to take over, instead? You know, one that doesn't use threats to get their money?

People view the government as legit as crappy as it is. I dont know of many protection agencies with the firepower to keep the US or many other governments from attacking you, and most people lack the resources that governments can command.


I dont say its fair or reasonable but thats just the way things are. Will probably require a zombie apocalypse or something that wipes out the central government before you get what you want.

There's plenty of things that will help reduce the power of governments to the point that a private agency can defend against them. One of those things is Bitcoin.

[whitenight639]

OK, so I do enjoy that little freedom I have. I moved away from my home country. I am using bitcoins as much as it is reasonable. But I still have significant issues with the status quo.

1. Somebody owns me. And I see no way to set myself free. I can never be sure if a bunch of crazy politicians decide they need to impose their laws on me even when I am abroad. I can never be sure if they decide not to renew my passport. I believe human ownership is wrong, and it has to be stopped. There has to be a way to renounce all citizenship, if needed, and become a citizen of nowhere.
2. I'd like to have private property. Real private property, a place where I can set up my own rules, instead of following the rules set up by the government. The current system does not allow that, mainly for the reason that people are not used to this much freedom, they see it as something alien, and resort to familiar collectivist thinking they have been taught throughout their entire lives.

I am a realist. I realize these two issues are unlikely to be resolved during my lifetime. But I still think that humanity will wake up sooner or later. I'd feel better if I could speed up this awakening as much as possible.

So, would you agree, in principle, that these are real issues? Do you feel comfortable being owned? Do you feel comfortable having no private property? Would you like this to be changed (I am not saying any real changes are possible in our lifetime, just curious)?

I agree with your sentiments above, Under the UN citizens of a country have the right to self determination, that is they can vote out of being under control of a certain state or empire right eg British commonwealth?
So does that right of self determination extend to the individual, if I buy a property outright and declare the land I own soveirgn and then hold a vote with those people on my land, and if we vote for sovriegnty and to separated from any national governments, does this not mean I / we would be a newly created sovriegn country and would be able to make our own laws and govern ourselvs??

I am not sure of the following but this is how I imagine the past was ment to be (in Britain we have been "subjects" of various Kings / Queens Bishops, knights and barrons so it rarely worked out this way as feudal times were dominated by serfdom and slavery):


It used to be that man was soviergn, this was a time when common law ruled and courts would be common law courts where local villagers would be summoned to the proceedings to determine the fate of an accused fellow villager. In these times there were no statues, no parliament, no "policy officers aka police" only peace officers that upheld the common law, everyone had the right to make a citizens arrest as anybody could be peace officers.

This was a time before birth certificates, driving licenses and passports all these documents are proof of your enslavement.


In relation to the OP illegal = against statute, Unlawful = against common law (as I understand it), Statue law has infected our court systems it used to be that common law was established by customs and precedents so if you have been regularly squatting on some unclaimed or common land for years then it was your common law right to do so as you have never had objections and were not causing anybody injury or loss, now statue set by the state can say any person squatting is committing an offence and because people fall for it and do not argue it is their right in court then judges rule based on the statute law again and again untill the new precedent is that people don't squat and that right is lost.

So the state can Legally steal (Levy / tax / Commandeer) but it is still unlawful / immoral,


just my .2Btc I could be wrong,

interesting people on the subject: Jordan Maxwell, Rob Menard.

[zeroday]

The government of Cyprus, blessed by EU-IMF, is stealing 9.9% of deposits from all bank accounts right now. Legally. I guess, this explicitly answers the question in the subject.

[TheButterZone]

The government of Cyprus, blessed by EU-IMF, is stealing 9.9% of deposits from all bank accounts right now. Legally. I guess, this explicitly answers the question in the subject.

Thought that was starting Tuesday?

[hawkeye]

You win bonehead of the year award. Talk about totally missing the point. The household is an analogy. When using analogies, the analogue is something which exists instead of the that which it is analogizing to.

Care to reread my reply instead of throwing insults?

It's a question of how you understand property rights. You are saying, you have property rights in your household, and, therefore, you can set up any rules that you like. I agree.

If you agree that you can do anything you want on what you clearly demarcate and defend as your property in a universe where no higher authority has domain over your little corner of the world, then you implicitly agree that in our universe on Earth, a country can do anything it wants on a territory which it clearly demarcates and defends as its own and no higher authority has domain over that nation, then we're on the same page. Congratulations if you understand that.

And be glad that in a world which offers many nations to choose from, some are pretty damn good. So good, in fact, that you would be a fool to complain and wish for something significantly different, as others here in this forum do indeed do.

For example, some dimwitted nitwits in these forums start drooling at the notion of life on oil rigs, or life living in rubber tubes on floating icebergs. Imagine the freedoms afforded by such terrific locales! What's next? Life on some mind numbingly cold and lonely rock in the Kuiper Belt? Or how about some ice rock in the Oort Cloud?

Bottom line - you don't know how good you actually have it.

Geez, it's always insults with you isn't it?  My experience is that generally people throw out the insults when they don't have an argument.

And as for the you don't know how good you have it, that is an argument that is made many times to justify criminal behaviour.  Hey, we're only taking 25% (or whatever) of your money be thankful that you get to keep the rest.   Think I saw that on a Sopranos episode.

I'm sure when the mafia runs a protection racket in a town, the same kinds of arguments are made.  Hey, this is a great place to live and all you have to do is put up with having your money stole and be told what to do and have the law being constantly changed and expanded on.  "Don't make a fuss, shut up, and be thankful for what you've got."   

[FirstAscent]

You win bonehead of the year award. Talk about totally missing the point. The household is an analogy. When using analogies, the analogue is something which exists instead of the that which it is analogizing to.

Care to reread my reply instead of throwing insults?

It's a question of how you understand property rights. You are saying, you have property rights in your household, and, therefore, you can set up any rules that you like. I agree.

If you agree that you can do anything you want on what you clearly demarcate and defend as your property in a universe where no higher authority has domain over your little corner of the world, then you implicitly agree that in our universe on Earth, a country can do anything it wants on a territory which it clearly demarcates and defends as its own and no higher authority has domain over that nation, then we're on the same page. Congratulations if you understand that.

And be glad that in a world which offers many nations to choose from, some are pretty damn good. So good, in fact, that you would be a fool to complain and wish for something significantly different, as others here in this forum do indeed do.

For example, some dimwitted nitwits in these forums start drooling at the notion of life on oil rigs, or life living in rubber tubes on floating icebergs. Imagine the freedoms afforded by such terrific locales! What's next? Life on some mind numbingly cold and lonely rock in the Kuiper Belt? Or how about some ice rock in the Oort Cloud?

Bottom line - you don't know how good you actually have it.

Geez, it's always insults with you isn't it?  My experience is that generally people throw out the insults when they don't have an argument.

And as for the you don't know how good you have it, that is an argument that is made many times to justify criminal behaviour.  Hey, we're only taking 25% (or whatever) of your money be thankful that you get to keep the rest.   Think I saw that on a Sopranos episode.

I'm sure when the mafia runs a protection racket in a town, the same kinds of arguments are made.  Hey, this is a great place to live and all you have to do is put up with having your money stole and be told what to do and have the law being constantly changed and expanded on.  "Don't make a fuss, shut up, and be thankful for what you've got."   

The difference being, in your objections, and reality, is you really don't know how good you have it. You don't really see down and out people complaining about taxes, do you? And besides, if you used all your brain cells (yes I'm insulting you because you really do deserve it), you'd realize that the opportunities afforded you to make money which puts you into a position of being taxed are likely because of the existence of the government.

If you want to complain, please expend your energy complaining about things which will help us all.

[MonadTran]

if you used all your brain cells (yes I'm insulting you because you really do deserve it), you'd realize that the opportunities afforded you to make money which puts you into a position of being taxed are likely because of the existence of the government.

Umm, no, sorry, not likely at all. Scientific research shows that economic growth (and, therefore, career opportunities) is negatively affected by the size of the government:



Experimental data first, little grey cells afterwards. Your data?

[JusticeForYou]

Ask the citizens of Cyprus.

[Mike Christ]

Ask the citizens of Cyprus.

Just call it a tax and it's legal

[Snipes777]

From my signature:

Taxation is Theft
War is Murder
Incarceration is Kidnapping
Spanking is Assault
Federal Reserve Notes are Counterfeiting

People in power like to define new words that remove them from responsibility. Theft is evil, but when you wear a blue costume, theft turns into taxation and is no longer evil, but good and necessary. It is pathetic. Ethics has classically been used to constrain the people while providing exceptions for those in power. Look at the wars while we are told to not kill. Look at the pope's fortune while telling the people that money is the root of all evil.

Rule for us -> exception for them. This makes their exception even more profitable. Imagine being a thief in a world where no one had even thought of the idea of stealing before.

If someone makes a moral rule it should apply to everyone, or else it should not exist.

[ironcross360]

Martial Eeek! Law

Is there ever a case where the government could legally steal?


The definition of theft is the "illegal taking...". Considering the government may pass any law they want and make it a "legal taking", is there anything the government would ever do that you would consider theft?


This question is more for those who do not believe that taxation is theft.

[Snipes777]

Despite your odd requirements in the OP:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/tsa-agent-accused-ipad-theft/story?id=17892885

Another TSA Agent Accused of iPad Theft

http://www.app.com/article/20130312/NJNEWS14/303120089/Former-state-investigatorgets-probation-thefts

Former state investigator gets probation for thefts

https://idcuffs.com/blog/police-officers-arrested-for-stealing-identities-from-state-drivers-license-database/

Police Officers Arrested for Stealing Identities from State Driver’s License Database

Here are just a few examples of "illegal theft" by the government.